is Quran the words of god ??
Debate Rounds (3)
Brothers sisters at the outset I want to greet you a greeting of Islam: Peace be upon you, but after
As noted, the subject of this debate is whether the Quran is the word of God ??
As it is well known, I am a Muslim and therefore I believe that the Qur'an from God revealed to the last messenger of Allah Muhammad peace be upon him
I believe this is based on several foundations and I will try to set forth facts in this debate with you, God willing
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Greetings to you and good luck.
Before touching the Koran that was really the word of God must first make it clear that Muhammad was a messenger from God, and since the brothers here majority of them Christians, I want to quote from the Bible, who believe in him and which he says.
"But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16 :7
I want to ask my brothers and sisters of Christians: who is this comforter who speaks about Jesus???
Many will answer "the Holy Spirit", my answer then will: the Holy Spirit was before or after Jesus ?? Everyone knows he was before, so it should not be on Jesus to go for the sending, this comforter conclude that he is not the Holy Spirit, but rather is the messenger comes after Jesus and he is the Prophet Muhammad is Allah bless him and grant him peace.
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." John 16:12-13
I ask again, who is the "Spirit of truth" ??? And do not tell me that the Holy Spirit, because we will return to the first point (before or after Jesus), and here I want to ask a question important: Who is the Spirit of truth, who does not speak of his own, but what he hears ?? we say to you he is Mohammed and this is what we believe in because he does not know how to read and not write, but also convey what is revealed to him (the only Prophet illiterate).
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
You, dear children,are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood." 1 John 4:1-6
Again i ask another question: Jesus peace be upon him gives you a way, or test to see sincere spirit of false so why not apply this test at Mohammed peace be upon him ?? He is the only prophet after Jesus who believes what it says Jesus and we Muslims are not a muslims if we did not believe in Jesus and what it says.
"O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:45
Mohammed inspired by God says that Jesus is the Messiah translated Christ, the only prophet who believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that is precisely the test who put Jesus, so why do not believe ???
Muslim is not completed his conversion to Islam if he did not believe in Jesus as a messenger from God, one of God's greatest messengers.
"Many quotations and the Gospels tell you that Muhammad is the Messenger of God and I can not show them all, I only choose from the Gospel of John
In the fourth Brothers and sisters, I hope that you will be open-minded, and, do not read fanatically for your beliefs
And Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds
I will be approaching this question using 3 strategies: using the Qur'an to falsify itself, using the Bible to prove the Qur'an is a fraud, and using the Qur'an to prove that it copied other sources.
Before Con comes up in his rebuttal and objet to my use of the Bible to judge the Qur'an, let me just point out the fact that he appealed to the Bible to try to prove the Qur'an is the Word of God. Therefore, he can't object to my use of the Bible, when he appealed to it. By appealing to it you establish its authority
Using the Qur'an to falsify itself
Just so I am clear, I am not using the Qur'an because I believe it is the word of God. I appeal to it because my opponent believes it's the word of God, so it's authoritative for him, but not for me.
This argument is very simple and it works like this, the Qur'an says that the true followers of Jesus would prevail over the disbelievers, until the day of judgment, in 2 places:
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. (3:55, Sahih International)
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant. (61:14, Sahih International)
Now let me just comment on these passages, what these passages are saying is that the true followers of Jesus would be the ones who prevail over the disbelievers who supposedly tried to change the message of Jesus. But if we go back in history, the only disciples who ever prevailed were the Christians who believed in the New Testament, which teaches that Jesus is God, died on the cross for sinners, and rose again on the 3rd day.
All of which the Qur'an denies. (Surah 4:157, 5:72, 35:18)
So this places Muslims in a dilemma.
If the Qur'an is true in saying that the true followers of Jesus prevailed, then the Qur'an is wrong, because the followers of Jesus who prevailed were the ones who contradicted Islam.
But if the message of Jesus got corrupted as Muslims very commonly claim, well then the Qur'an is still wrong, because the Qur'an says that the true message of Jesus would prevail over the disbelievers.
So no matter what your view of what happened to the true message of Jesus is, the Qur'an is wrong, which places Muslims in a no-win situation.
Part 2 of my argument works like this: The Qur'an confirms the Bible, while at the same time contradicting the core message of the Bible
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (3:3, Sahih International)
Now let me just briefly comment on this verse. This translation mistranslates what the Arabic is actually saying. The word translated as "confirming what was before it" should in actuality be translated as "confirming that which is between his hands"
In the Arabic, it says "musadeeqin leema bayna yadayhee", which literally means "confirming what is between his hands". And any Arabic speaker will confirm the truth of this. I think my opponent speaks Arabic, so if he is honest, he will confirm the truth of this.
But the point is this...the Qur'an is confirming the previous scriptures that we have access to, namely the Torah and the Gospel. So therefore, the Qur'an is saying that it confirms the scriptures that Muhammad and his contemporaries had access to. As far as what the Gospel looked like at the time of Muhammad, there is no question, it is the same Gospels that we read today.
But there is problem, the Gospel says that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who died on the cross for sinners, and rose again on the 3rd day, all of which the Qur'an denies.
Therefore, if the Gospel we have today is true, the Qur'an is false, for it contradicts the Gospel.
However, if you want to say that the Gospels have been corrupted, then the Qur'an is still wrong, because it says that the Gospels are not corrupt, so either way the Qur'an is wrong.
This is another no-win situation for the Muslims.
So if the Qur'an is wrong either way, then the Qur'an is not the word of God.
Using the Bible to falsify the Qur'an
In the New Testament in particular we have the criteria for an Antichrist
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)
Lo and behold, the Qur'an goes out of it's way to deny both the Father and the Son:
And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your sins? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created. (5:18, Moulana translation)
And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (9:30, Moulana translation)
Remember, my opponent appealed to 1 John in his opening, so that gives me the authority to appeal to the same book. And according to the author of 1 John, whoever denies that Jesus is the Son of God, and denies the Fatherhood of God is an Antichrist, Muhammad denied both the Father and the Son. Therefore, Muhammad is Antichrist according to the standards of the book that my opponent appealed to.
The Qur'an borrowing other sources:
I will list several examples of the Qur'an plagiarizing other sources, proving that is not from God:
I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breath into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird. (Surah 3:49)
And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds...esus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping. (Infancy Gospel of Thomas, part III; http://gnosis.org...)
[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive. (Surah 19:30-31)
He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world. (Arabic Infancy Gospel, part I, http://www.gnosis.org...)
Now Muhammad obviously didn't include the part that had Jesus saying he is the Son of God, but he most certainly copied the idea that Jesus spoke from the cradle. One thing to notice is just look at the amount of anachronisms in Surah 19:30-31, the Qur'an puts in the mouth of Jesus two of the five pillars of Islam, how very convenient, Muhammad replaces Jesus saying he is the Son of God, with him saying that he is a Prophet and him supposedly saying he would do prayer and zakat. Muhammad is essentially taking our Lord and turning him into a Muslim, which he never was.
How do you think Muslims would react if someone came 600 years after Muhammad (Ahmadiyyas in this case) and put the following words into the mouth of Muhammad:
"Indeed, I am the messenger of Allah, and I am giving glad tidings of a blessed apostle to come after me, who is the Messiah named Ghulam Ahmed".
No Muslim on the planet would believe Muhammad said this. Why? Because there is nor record of him in the Hadiths saying it, nor anywhere else for that matter.
But anyways, the point is the Qur'an plagiarizes other sources, edited them a little, and passed it on as its own ideas, when in reality, it isn't.
Interestingly, the Qur'an itself record those who made this claim:
"They say, 'Fairy-tales of the ancients that he has had written down, so that they are recited to him at the dawn and in the evening.'" (25:5, Arberry tranlation)
Now why would the Qur'an record this claim unless, that's what the people were saying? Even the people at Muhammad's time knew that the stories he was telling wasn't anything new. "Muhammad, we've heard these stories before, these are simply mythical stories that you have copied down." This is essentially what Muhammad is being charged with, and the charge was fully justified, Muhammad did in fact copy the fables down as part of his Qur'an.
The Quran's suped response to this claim is "Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful.""(Surah 25:6)
So quite clearly, Muhammad is denying their allegations, while they were true.
So in summary, I have shown that the Qur'an is false by using the Qur'an to falsify itself, I have used the Bible to falsify the Qur'an, and I have used the fact that Muhammad copied down mythical stories from the Jews and Christians as part of his Qur'an proving that the Qur'an is not from God, because God wouldn't plagiarize other sources without giving them credit.
All of these reasons combined show that the Qur'an is not the word of God, but rather a man-made book.
My brother, I said that most of the brothers here are Christians so I will quote from the Bible, the English-language and which is your language does not mean that I believe in and what he says but I wanted to understand you with your book who you believe in it.
Brother came with quotations from the Koran to tell us that the followers of Jesus are the incline and so on ... but brother understand the whole issue "Wrong" and we're not in a dilemma and we were not in a dilemma and we will not be in a dilemma, God willing, for we Muslims we believe that Jesus, not Lord, it is a messenger from God sent to the children of Israel to invite them to worship the one God, some of them they believed what he brought, and these are the Christians who speaks their Koran not who say and believe that god is 3 in 1, and if the brother read the quotations and interpreted well rather than past it directly to understand the meaning, especially as he ws a Muslim I think.
As for the second Parts of your speech;
Brother, you are running in the same vicious circle, because you understand that Christianity mentioned in the Koran, is Christianity that apply now, and this is wrong.
And I comfirm here that the translation of the verse (3: 3) is incorrect 100% and what you said is the correct translation
"confirming what is between his hands" that there is no god but Alah not you say now that 3, and not this books that you read now And that change every day.
My brother, I want to take the opportunity to correcting you that the Bible did not say sent after 3 days, but said after a day and two nights, and that did not believe me look good and you will know the truth, and here we put a number of questions about the validity of the existing speech.
As for the quotation of the Gospel, which are many and i can not comment on them all,because I want to talk about the Koran, which is the corresponding address, the whole talk that who does not believe that Jesus is God, he is the Antichrist. I want to challenge here my brother and every Christian on the face of the earth, that if he comes to me with a simple verse clear and understandable of the Gospel, which he says Jesus with his tongue i am a god or worship me, I am ready to converted to Christianity, and I want to clarify something that "do not coming to me with Paulus said or another person i wana jesus talk.
In another, my brother said that, Mohammed, peace be upon him and had taken or copied from other books and so on, my brother, He was illiterate illiterate, tell me how a man illiterate to copy from other books? Incidentally, this is a fulfilment of a prophecy in your book i quote from isaiah 29 : 12 "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." and dont tell me that you dont know the story of the descent of the revelation to Muhammad, peace be upon him, so if my opponent is honest, he will confirm the story.
This is the evidence that this great Koran is the word of God, and this illiterate Prophet had came with a book in it a lot and a lot of scientific facts, which recently discovered, can not mention them all,
For example: the earth is round, the Big Bang and how the universe maded, the stages form the fetus, the water cycle, sensory receptors in human skin, and many many recent discoveries, and those who want to get out detailed them with quotations, this video of Dr. Zakir Naik in it what I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com...
Now tell me how a man illiterate knew all these facts 1400 years ago, in ٍthe desert of Mecca if he was not from God ???
In the latter I wanted to warn that the brother did not comment on something which I said in the second round it calls me to say I was right in everything I said.
And Praise be to Allah, and prayer and peace be upon the Prophet Muhammad the last messenger of Allah.
Con said "we believe that Jesus, not Lord, it is a messenger from God sent to the children of Israel to invite them to worship the one God, some of them they believed what he brought, and these are the Christians who speaks their Koran not who say and believe that god is 3 in1."
My response: I'd like to thank Con for just confirming my point. If you notice what he said, he said that Jesus brought the message of "worshiping one God, not 3 in 1." But if you paid any attention to my opening statement, that was precisely my point. The Qur'an said the true followers of Jesus would prevail against the disbelievers. The disbelievers according to Islam were the Christians who believe that Jesus is God, yet, that is exactly what the NT writers teach concerning Jesus. For the verses that explicitly call Jesus God, read the following verses: John 1:1, John 20:28, Romans 9:5, Philippians 2:5-6, Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8. All of these passages without question call Jesus God. Yet, these are the Christians who prevailed in the 1st century. But if these were the Christians who prevailed, then the Qur'an may have been correct in saying his true followers would prevail, but those followers believed in doctrine that contradicts the Qur'an, which means the Qur'an is wrong. Con didn't address the argument, he just confirmed it, so I thank him for that.
If you want more proof that the Christians who believed Jesus is God prevailed, let me quote to you an early Church Father, Ignatius of Antioch (35 AD-117 AD).
And he is a very important Church Father because he was a personal disciple of the Apostle John as well as Peter. He would be in a position to echo what the disciples were saying concerning Christ, and here is what he writes in his epistle to the Ephesians:
We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh." (Ignatius' epistle to the Ephesians, ch. 7)
Con said "And I comfirm here that the translation of the verse (3: 3) is incorrect 100% and what you said is the correct translation "confirming what is between his hands" that there is no god but Alah not you say now that 3, and not this books that you read now And that change every day."
My response: Well at first, I was happy that Con was being honest for the first part of his statement...until he said it doesn't confirm what we have today. But he just contradicted himself in the same sentence. If the Qur'an "confirms that which is between his (Muhammad's) hands" then that means he is confirming the scriptures to be uncorrupt. Why would Muhammad confirms scriptures that were corrupted? So no in fact, you are wrong I am afraid. By Muhammad confirming the Gospel and Torah he had access to at his time, he is confirming the scriptures that we have today. This is because the Torah and Gospel haven't changed since the time of Muhammad and is virtually identical to what we read today.
Con said "I want to challenge here my brother and every Christian on the face of the earth, that if he comes to me with a simple verse clear and understandable of the Gospel, which he says Jesus with his tongue i am a god or worship me, I am ready to converted to Christianity, and I want to clarify something that "do not coming to me with Paulus said or another person i wana jesus talk."
My response: I just can't believe that Con would resort to this argument of "where did Jesus say "I am God, worship me'". This is a very common objection. And the idea is that Jesus must use a specific set of words, or else he can't be God. It doesn't matter if he is called God, it doesn't matter if he is called the Creator of all things, it doesn't matter if he is called Yahweh, it doesn't matter if he accepts worship in a religious context (which in a religious context, only God is to be worshipped), none of that matters; if the specific words aren't used by Jesus, then he can't be God according to Muslims.
Let me ask you a question, you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, right? Well then, show me where Jesus said "I am the Messiah" in those exact words, can't do it, he doesn't say it. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah according to Islam. Now how many Muslims would take this objection seriously. I am sure Con wouldn't, so why even bother raising the question.
But let me answer the objection anyways.
The reason why Jesus didn't walk around Israel telling the people "I am God, Worship me" is very simple. If any Jew in the 1st century heard Jesus saying "I am God", they would either think he is crazy, or would get a false assumption of who he is claiming to be. If Jesus simply walked on the scene and said "I am God", the Jews would've thought in their minds that he is claming to be God the Father. Anytime God is used without qualification, then it refers to the Father. But Jesus would've been a bad communicator if he gave people the impression that he was claiming to be God the Father, when he wasn't, he is the Divine Son of God. Therefore, in order for him to clearly communicate who he is, he would have to speak so that he distinguishes himself from the Father, while at the same time claiming to be God using words, no mere prophet would ever say, which is exactly what he does, here are a few examples:
"Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working." 18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
Notice how the Jews reacted to his claim, they understood that he was not the Father, yet he was claiming to be God, by claiming the preogitive to work on the sabbath, which any Jew living in the 1st century knew, only God could work on the Sabbath. Essentially what Jesus said to them is "Hey, my Father works on the Sabbath, therefore, I being the Son, I too work on the Sabbath." You see how clear Jesus is. Here is a perfect example of Jesus claiming to be God while distinguishing himself from the Father. The Jews stoned him because they knew that he was claiming to be God by claiming to Divine perogotive to work on the Sabbath. And Jesus never corrected the Jews who thought he was claiming to be God. Therefore, John 5:17-18 is a clear claim by Jesus to his Deity.
Second part of the objection: "where did Jesus say 'worship me'"
Very simple, continue reading John 5, and Jesus makes that very claim:
"that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." (John 5:23)
No mere prophet would ever dare claim that he must receive the same honor as God the Father does. If you ask any 1st century Jew "how do you honor God the Father?", their response would be "We pray to and worship him as our Creator" Well Jesus said that you must honor him just as you honor the Father, meaning you must worship Jesus as God, just as you worship the Father as God. He then goes on to say that if you don't honor him like that, you are rejecting the Father who sent him.
So in answer to your question, Jesus claimed to be God in John 5:17-18, and he said to worship him in John 5:23.
Are you ready to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior now?
If Jesus was not God, then he is either a lunatic or a diabolical deceiver. No mere prophet who is God-fearing would ever say the things Jesus said if he wasn't God.
Con said "isaiah 29 : 12 "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." and dont tell me that you dont know the story of the descent of the revelation to Muhammad, peace be upon him, so if my opponent is honest, he will confirm the story."
My response: You may have a point, but there is a problem, did you even bother reading the verse you quoted? If you actually read it in context, Isaiah is writing about judgment concerning the Nation of Israel. He is not predicting a prophet to come, he is saying these are the excuses tha nation of Israel comes up with to refuse to listen to the word of God. Therefore, if Isaiah 29:12 is about Muhammad, then Muhammad is condemned, because God is condemning people who say this.
Con said "Now tell me how a man illiterate knew all these facts 1400 years ago, in ٍthe desert of Mecca if he was not from God ???"
My response: The science in the Qur'an is not stuff that requires divine revelation to know. All it requires is a passing aquaintance with general knowledge about the primitive state of science at the time.
As far as John 16 and the Spirit of Truth, the answer is very simple, you say that the Holy Spirit was already present so how could it be the Holy Spirit? Well, if we continue reading what Jesus says, in John 14, which is the same context as John 16:
"even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (John 14:17)
Jesus is not saying the Helper wasn't already there with them, he was saying that he is currently present, but the difference is, when Jesus returns back to his glory with the Father, the Spirit will now be inside the disciples.
This also proves that the Spirit of Truth is God, because Jesus said the Spirit would be in all the disciples at the same time, showing you he is omnipresent (can be in more than 1 place at the same time), and only God is omnipresent.
So this passage is a nightmare for Islam. If Muhammad is the Spirit, the logical conclusion is that he must be God then.
With that said, I have proven my case, the Qur'an is not the word of God.
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