The Instigator
TG2333
Pro (for)
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The Contender
kjorstad
Con (against)
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is there a god ?

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 794 times Debate No: 39495
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

TG2333

Pro

hello there my opponent !, I'm a Muslim,here we're going to talk about god and if he exists, now you see before I go into religion I want to talk about the basics stuff of why god exists.

1_who created the bigbang ?
_this is a really simple Q that i ask you,now your going to start talking about the multi universe, ok why not ? i support the idea of the multiverse thing, but who created the first big bang ? who created the first universe ?

2_the universe is too good to be a random
_the universe is beautiful,organized and with no mistakes,and it is impossible to make such a thing with an explosion with no mistakes, did you see ever bill gates throwing a grenade and creating a very well done pc ? i don't think so.

as a muslim i believe in the bigbang cause it is mentioned in our book before 1400 thousand years ago, with other scientific verses,theres over 6000 verse but only 1000 that talks about science,but the quran isn't a book of science but it's a book of signs
kjorstad

Con

Thank you to my opponent! I would simply like to say that if anything I say offends, I did not intend it as such, and sincerely apologize.

Addressing the question of God and does he exist:

To respond to the arguments that you have as of yet been put forward, I would suggest that you have based your position in assumption rather than fact.

-To address the Big Bang, I do not seek to deny the Big Bang as a theory; I would, however, say that it is possible that it simply happened. I think that perhaps a better question, rather than "Who created the Big Bang," would be "How or Why did the Big Bang happen?"

- Likewise, it is possible that our world and the universe as a whole came together without a "Godly" influence, that this is simply the result of evolution and the process of life. You say that it would be impossible to create this from the Big Bang without a God, but I would ask why not? [Certainly Bill Gates didn"t throw a grenade to make a PC. However, a grenade is hardly comparable to the Big Bang.]

You may suggest that, excluding the existence of a God, I have no evidence of what caused the Big Bang, how there was space or particles, how the planets formed, how life begun, etc. I would argue that you have no evidence of the same to support the existence of a God. It appears that your reasoning for there being a God is the fact that we are here having this conversation. Would you then discount evolution as a theory as well?

It is as arguable that the Big Bang and the universe resulted from divine influence as it is to suggest that it simply happened. I eagerly await your response.
Debate Round No. 1
TG2333

Pro

* Likewise, it is possible that our world and the universe as a whole came together without a "Godly" influence, that this is simply the result of evolution and the process of life*

so your saying that it is possible to invent a machine without a creator ? it's like if somebody was knocking on your door, and you go to the door to open it and you find nobody ? but somebody knocked on the door, the door can't knock it self ? right ?

again as a muslim i believe in evolution, because it was also written in our book, but not the part of us being apes, but again were gonna ask this who created evolution ? the way your putting it is that Atoms have brains, it's like saying that this rock had it all planned and it created everything, it's nonsense, an atom can't think about your evolution , an Atom can't move it self, an Atom can't say that it's gonna give you a third arm, space was black with nothing , time didn't exist either did evolution.

and why didn't you answer me about the quran metioning the bigbang before 1400 years ago ? do you want me to talk about all scientific stuff that our book said before even science existed ? how can our prophet write such a book without him knowing how to read and write ? only the creator will know these stuff
kjorstad

Con

-As per the question of "inventing a machine without a creator," I am saying exactly that: perhaps this machine came together of chance, without a being directing its construction. A machine may come together simply of its own accord, without a conscious will directing it.
"again as a muslim i believe in evolution, because it was also written in our book, but not the part of us being apes, but again were gonna ask this who created evolution ? the way your putting it is that Atoms have brains, it's like saying that this rock had it all planned and it created everything, it's nonsense, an atom can't think about your evolution , an Atom can't move it self, an Atom can't say that it's gonna give you a third arm, space was black with nothing , time didn't exist either did evolution."
-Evolution is not something that needed creating. It is simply a characteristic of life. It is the process or growth, formation, development, and adjustment that living forms naturally undergo. Both time and evolution existed the moment of the big bang. And evolution was followed after the beginning of life.
-Neither am I saying that atoms have brains or that rocks are planning the course of future events. What I am saying is that over the course of billions of years, these atoms joined together (which is in the nature of atoms, to bond with each other) and ultimately formed the earth and everything on it. An atom does not have to "think" to join with another atom, it simply does. Likewise, if I release a rock 5 feet above the ground, the rock doesn"t have to "think" "ok, I need to fall because of gravity." That is nonsense, as you say yourself. The rock falls because it is in the nature of a rock under gravity to fall.
-And to respond to your "knocking on door" analogy, I would point out that your analogy isn"t exactly congruent to the discussion. A door is hardly comparable to the universe. Our understanding of doors easily allows us to conclude that, indeed, a door cannot knock itself. However, we cannot say that it was a "someone" rather than a "something" that began the universe. Again, you revert to your assumption that someone had to have designed the universe. Just because something is so vast that we don"t entirely comprehend it doesn"t mean divine presence or orchestration. So while I have no idea who is knocking on your door, I do not believe that there had to have been someone "making the machine."

"as a muslim i believe in the bigbang cause it is mentioned in our book before 1400 thousand years ago, with other scientific verses,theres over 6000 verse but only 1000 that talks about science,but the quran isn't a book of science but it's a book of signs"
-I did not respond to this point because, primarily, I did not see it as being overly relevant to the discussion. However, since you see this as important, I will certainly address it.
-First, I fail to see it as relevant because the two are not mutually exclusive. The existence of a book written about 1,400 years ago that references the big bang has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a God exists.
-I will not debate the fact that the quran references the big bang over 1,400 years ago when it was compiled. I believe the specific wording you are referring to is "Have not the unbelievers ever considered that the skies and the earth were once one mass, then We split them asunder?" -noble Quran 21:30 (Malik Translation). And let"s not say that the quran mentioned this before science existed. I would point out that there were many theorists on space and the origins of the universe before the quran was compiled, and certainly before the modern-day scientists that coined the term the "Big Bang" (such as in ancient Greece). As for how Muhammad wrote the quran without knowing how to read or write, he did know how to read and write, pretty much every semi-educated person of his time did. So, I fail to see the point of that comment.
-Likewise, it isn"t just the quran that mentions things like this. In the bible, while it doesn"t mention something akin to the big bang theory, it does give a timeline that would suggest the universe was created just over 6,000 years ago. This is in direct contradiction with all we know of the universe through science, all of which shows that the universe itself is over 13.7 billion years old. There is hard evidence of this number, which is supported by everything we know of the universe.
-So, I would simply like to restate that you have not of yet disproved my point that all of this (life, the universe, and everything) did not simply happen. Your religion has led you to believe that is was God who created all of this, and yet there is no evidence to contradict my stance. I look forward to your counterargument.
Debate Round No. 2
TG2333

Pro

*if I release a rock 5 feet above the ground, the rock doesn't have to "think" "ok, I need to fall because of gravity.*

exactly you released the rock, you caused it to fall down, you just released it and you just let it do whatever it's going to do, but how did the body of an ape know about what should it evolve into ? how did it find out how to improve the brain ? a machine can't be created and programed by it self and evolution won't work on it if it didn't have a code saying how to evolve

the prophet mohammed didn't know how to read and write, you point that only educated people right ? well mohamed wasn't educated , he used other people to write his book, first it was just pages then after the prophet mohamed died, one of his poeple was afraid that the book would get lost and all the other pages, so he got all the pages together one by one and organized and made alot of copies of it, millions of people now have the book fully memorized ,thats why the book until now wasn't changed, alot of poeple are trying now to change it like apps and stuff, and worst of them is wiki islam.

he used to get the information and memorize it, so he would tell other people to write, he talks and they would write, and theres many other scientific verses, the water cycle, mountains perverting earthquakes(not sure about that one i'll review that verse later, and how mountains are formed, the universe expanding, the eleven planets, and that the earth orbits the sun, even it mentions that life exists on other worlds, and that the moon doesn't has it's own light but it gets the light from the sun, oh and i have my own one too i connected some of the verses and i mybe got something out of it,but note that it's just me and not confirmed i won't mind if you want me to tell you about it , and alot of other things, mohamed was living in a really ignorant area, they would worship rocks as gods and kill sheeps for them, and the ancient greece mentioning the big bang is not proven

as a muslim i don't care about the bible if it also mentions scientific stuff, because you can't be a muslim if you don't believe in jesus,christianity,the bible,and torah, cause they are apart of my religion,but the org bible and not the one that was changed 75 times now,the bible has many scientific errors,like saying that the moon having it's own light, and that god created earth first before the sun and the moon, and that he planted trees before the sun existed, there all in genesis 1,i believe in the bible but not this bible,the nearest bible to the org is the james version.

i'm having fun with you :) , you are a really educated guy,i'll be waiting for your response.
kjorstad

Con

"how did the body of an ape know about what should it evolve into ? how did it find out how to improve the brain ? a machine can't be created and programed by it self and evolution won't work on it if it didn't have a code saying how to evolve"

-First, I would simply like to point out that in stating that you don"t believe in humans evolving from apes, and then asking how apes knew to evolve, you contradict yourself. I would pose the question, do you or do you not believe in the theory of human evolution from apes? And, if you do not, what in the Quran leads you to this conclusion?

-Second, evolution does indeed have a code saying how to evolve, expressed quite simply through "survival of the fittest," or as Charles Darwin would put it, natural selection. This code guides evolution throughout history. We"ve seen it and have evidence of it; to give several, there is the peppered moth, Darwin"s finches, the Blue Moon Butterfly, live birth in Skinks, and many others. There is even physical evidence of human evolution from apes. So, indeed there is a code, as you say, guiding evolution. It just isn"t a person, but rather the process of life. Just as rocks fall, so does life evolve.

-I am still unsure as to why you specify that Muhammad couldn"t read and write; I presume you mean to present this as evidence to prove the veracity of the contents of the Quran. However, I would hold that his ability to read or write has no effect on exactly how much truth is contained in his "teachings." What matters is the accuracy of the book"s content"s, not its writer.

-Thirdly, it would seem that your response to all of my statistical evidence supporting the scientific interpretation of the age of the universe and of evolution is that it can be true because it is mentioned in the Quran. However, I will cite the theory of metaphysical naturalism and say that all events, especially the ones that have been brought up as of yet in this discourse, can be explained just as well, and in many cases more accurately, through science as they can be through belief in God.

-As for my reference to ancient Greece, I didn"t say that they mentioned the Big Bang. I said they were predicting and hypothesizing about things that modern day scientists are/have, disproving your point that the Quran was written before the existence of science (which is quite the claim).

-And as to you not believing in the bible, that"s fine; that"s what you believe. However, as I have adopted the stance of there not being a God, all texts, bible or Quran, are of an equal playing field. I cannot address one and simply ignore the rest; that would be conforming to one religion. Rather, it is important to look at all pieces of evidence before coming to a conclusion. To respond to your specific "scientific error" points on the bible:

-The bible does not say the moon has its own light; it says the moon"s light is the same as that of the sun, which it is.
-As for the order of creation, I believe this is simply a difference of belief between Christianity and Islam, so I will not address it.

-Thus, the "moon having light" argument is not a scientific error, rather a misinterpretation. And the order of creation is only a "scientific error" insofar as many scientists would disagree. I would point out that the neither the bible, nor, as you have said the quran, are scientific texts meant to completely agree with what modern scientists believe.

-'Tis a good debate; I eagerly await your response.
Debate Round No. 3
TG2333

Pro

****First, I would simply like to point out that in stating that you don"t believe in humans evolving from apes, and then asking how apes knew to evolve, you contradict yourself. I would pose the question, do you or do you not believe in the theory of human evolution from apes? And, if you do not, what in the Quran leads you to this conclusion?****

i do believe in evolution but yes i disagree with us being apes, i won't mind supporting the idea if it is fully proven.

****you don"t believe in humans evolving from apes, and then asking how apes knew to evolve****

i don't believe in it, but i was just putting it in your way, the quran mentions it but it doesn't mentions anything about us being apes, the quran didn't disagree or agree with us being apes, i'll just keep in track of the theory.

i understand what are you talking about, but you didn't tell me how did the cells,the brain,and the body change, if the brain is going straight========= like this it can't just move to the left without anyone pushing it, yes just like the rock you released it.

and when i asked you about who created the big bang or how did the big bang happened, you told me that it's evolution, how is it evolution if time didn't even exist ?

******I am still unsure as to why you specify that Muhammad couldn"t read and write; I presume you mean to present this as evidence to prove the veracity of the contents of the Quran. However, I would hold that his ability to read or write has no effect on exactly how much truth is contained in his "teachings." What matters is the accuracy of the book"s content"s, not its writer******

exactly!, I mentioned it cause if the prophet mohammed didn't know how to read and write so how would he get this information ?
do you know who created the theory of the big bang ? it was a priest, he found it mentioned in the torah the book of the jews.

*****And as to you not believing in the bible****

i do believe in the bible, cause it's part of islam, which the christmas don't really know about, but i don't believe in the book that was changed a lot of times, the bible was written after jesus died, and these scientific errors didn't exist in the book until it was changed, as a muslim theres no other religions cause they all one, christianity and jews are stages, first came mosa then jesus then mohamed, these three were the only ones who had there own book, but there was over 100,000 prophet but only 25 or so mentioned and only two were made gods, if our book was changed over time we would've made mohamed as a god or son of god, but were not talking about this now so ya.

and that is not a difference of belief between christianity and islam, earth orbits the sun so you can't create earth first then the sun, and planting trees before the sun even existing is nonsense cause without a sun trees can't grow.

***The bible does not say the moon has its own light; it says the moon"s light is the same as that of the sun***

genesis chapter 1 verse 16:::And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:
it says that god made two lights and theres nothing talking about that the moon having the same light as the sun

*****moon having light" argument is not a scientific error, rather a misinterpretation.****

no if the bible was the word of god then there should be no misinterpretations but again this is not what we are talking about, but don't get me wrong the bible is the book of god but right now if you ask me no it's not anymore,the bible now is a book of marketing

and yes the quran isn't about science it's about signs these scientific verses is just there to prove that mohamed didn't write the book and that it's the book of god.

i'll be waiting for your response.
kjorstad

Con

-To counter your response on the passage on the moon in the bible, I think you are interpreting it waay too literally. "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night" "Gen 1:16. Would you argue that the moon is indeed lit at night? I thought not. This may only be seen to mean that the moon has its own light when taken at face value. Furthermore, the bible also says "Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days" "Isaiah 30:26. Thus, it does say that the light of the moon is one and the same as the light of the sun, it simply doesn"t go into an explanation of albedo and how light reflects off the moon.

**** no if the bible was the word of god then there should be no misinterpretations****

-So when I said that the moon having its own light argument was a misinterpretation rather than a scientific mistake, I meant a misinterpretation on the part of the reader rather than on the part of the bible itself.

-All right. Evolution in terms of the human body. If we look at organisms, humans included, they are structurally similar yet all are unique. For example, If I take 100 lizards (or whatever organism you prefer) of the same species, each and every one is different from the next. None have the exact same coloring, the same pattern on their bodies, the same exact brain capacity, etc. For example, if we took a primate without opposable thumbs and a primate with opposable thumbs and released them into the wild, the one with the opposable thumbs would be more likely to survive simply because having opposable thumbs is a vast advantage. Thus, organisms that have unusual yet useful abnormalities survive while the rest die out, leading the abnormality to becoming the norm of that species. This is the same on the organism level as it is on the cellular level; small changes can affect the organism"s ability to process information. Humans with larger brains flourished in ancient earth because they had a greater capacity to survive in hostile environments, to analyze their surroundings, to reason, etc. There isn"t anyone "pushing" cells into place or developing a new trait in organisms; it is simply what occurs in life.

-And no, I am not suggesting that the Big Bang was evolution. I am saying that evolution came into being as a potentiality immediately following the Big Bang. Perhaps there wasn"t yet anything to evolve, but it was still a conceptual reality from the beginning. And yes, time began in this instance too.

**** exactly!, I mentioned it cause if the prophet mohammed didn't know how to read and write so how would he get this information ?****

-As I stated, the fact that Muhammad could neither read nor write has no bearing on the accuracy of what he says. I don"t intend to be rude, but I have no reason to believe that Muhammad didn"t just make up everything he told to his followers and the person/persons who recorded it. There have been many cases of the same in history; I could easily count both the Quran and the bible as fabrications with semblances of truth. Regardless of the presence of concepts that Muhammad may or may not have understood in the Quran, these ideas were around long before the existence of the Quran and it wouldn"t have been hard to simply rephrase them. However, I digress; this is an issue of faith and belief in the accuracy of the Quran rather than the existentialism of God.

-While I cannot find any evidence or support for your claim of the big bang being coined by a priest who found it in the Torah, I also have not read the Torah and will not contradict this.

**** and that is not a difference of belief between christianity and islam, earth orbits the sun so you can't create earth first then the sun, and planting trees before the sun even existing is nonsense cause without a sun trees can't grow.****

-As for this, I suppose this is largely an issue of fa
Debate Round No. 4
TG2333

Pro

* these ideas were around long before the existence of the Quran and it wouldn't have been hard to simply rephrase them. However, I digress; this is an issue of faith and belief in the accuracy of the Quran rather than the existentialism of God*

-And no, I am not suggesting that the Big Bang was evolution. I am saying that evolution came into being as a potentiality immediately following the Big Bang. Perhaps there wasn't yet anything to evolve, but it was still a conceptual reality from the beginning. And yes, time began in this instance too.

yes, but my point is that there was no time at all before the bigbang, it was just black and silent, nothing existed, besides god

what do you mean these ideas were long before the quran ?, i did tell you that christianity is part of our religion, it's just stages 1.2.3 , but if i'm going to keep talking about this were gonna go into another story now, so lets just stay on track.

you see not trying to be rude, be i'm entirely convinced by your words, but still you didn't say anything that can destroy the idea of a god existing

and still i disagrea with you, he said we made two great lights stating that there are diff lights and not the same, besides you as an atheist do you agree on how did god make life on earth ? and how earth was done ? i don't think you do, god has to be logical, but seriously this is not our subject now,but it doesn't matter cause were at the fifth round soo.

this is my last comment so i'm just going to say this, i'm convinced on what you said about that example, but you see in your way and i say in my way, i see that god created this system that allowed evolution, and in your way you see that this universe just popped out from nowhere , so this is my last comment so please don't be rude at the comment section comment on what you think if you have Q's i'll answer it same thing with my opponent as well, this was a great debate cya!
kjorstad

Con

I has indeed been a good debate! And I would agree that it does essentially come down to what you believe and what you don't believe.

**** and still i disagrea with you, he said we made two great lights stating that there are diff lights and not the same, besides you as an atheist do you agree on how did god make life on earth ? and how earth was done ? i don't think you do, god has to be logical, but seriously this is not our subject now,but it doesn't matter cause were at the fifth round soo.****

-I must disagree with you on the whole moon thing. If you take the statements at face value, then I can see how you would interpret it in this way. However, the true meaning is not in contradiction with the "moon as we know it." But, this is solely based in interpretation and belief.

I would completely agree that this eventually comes down simply to whether or not you believe in the existence of God.

And, by the way, I"m not atheist; I do believe in the existence of God.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
don't know didn't try voting
Posted by kjorstad 3 years ago
kjorstad
For some reason it isn't letting me submit my vote, not sure why. Are you having the same problem?
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