The Instigator
TG2333
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
Lordgrae
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

is there a god ?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TG2333
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/27/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 856 times Debate No: 39528
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

TG2333

Pro

hello there my opponent !, I'm a Muslim,here we're going to talk about god and if he exists, now you see before I go into religion I want to talk about the basics stuff of why god exists.

1_who created the bigbang ?
_this is a really simple Q that i ask you,now your going to start talking about the multi universe, ok why not ? i support the idea of the multiverse thing, but who created the first big bang ? who created the first universe ?

2_the universe is too good to be a random
_the universe is beautiful,organized and with no mistakes,and it is impossible to make such a thing with an explosion with no mistakes, did you see ever bill gates throwing a grenade and creating a very well done pc ? i don't think so.

as a muslim i believe in the bigbang cause it is mentioned in our book before 1400 thousand years ago, with other scientific verses,theres over 6000 verse but only 1000 that talks about science,but the quran isn't a book of science but it's a book of signs

i say your comment replying to this guy who was support the idea of jesus being god, so i just wanted to do a debate with you
Lordgrae

Con

would like to propose a slight amendment to the resolution, if my opponent okays it. "Is there a theistic god?", as the deistic god is an unfalsifiable hypothesis

"1_who created the bigbang ?"

I could answer this question with many theories proposed by people in the scientific field of theoretical or quantum physics of how the big bang could have occurred. Since there is both matter and anti-matter present in our universe, and when you combine them you get nothing, that when you have nothing, it can split into matter and antimatter. Interesting , though it is unproven and remains yet a theory.

The simplest answer to this question is that I don't know, and no one knows. Some people think they know, though that in itself is irrational, The fact of the matter is is that you are saying that atheism is false, because it cannot answer one question. Let me ask you this, didn't many years ago people believe in spontaneous generation? Then we did experiments, and learned that under normal circumstances, spontaneous generation could not occur. *1

"2_the universe is too good to be a random"

It is not random, it follows predictable patterns, summarized in laws. These laws are not strict rules that are imposed, simply descriptions of how systems work.

This is a crux that I often run into when facing creationists in debates. This is not my area or strength, though I shall attempt to refute it as best that I can without outside help.

Basically, if the conditions were different, they would just be different. If the earth were a thousand degrees hotter, and somehow life came to be, those people would marvel at how perfectly it had been created for them.

Basically, there are billions of planets, most of which are orbiting stars. "In 2011, Seth Borenstein concluded that there are roughly 500 million habitable planets in the Milky Way. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory 2011 study, based on observations from the Kepler mission, raised the number somewhat, concluding that about 1.4 to 2.7 percent of all stars of class F, G, and K are expected to have planets in their [goldilocks zone]"*2

So basically, with so many planets, its bound that some large number are in an area that is generally habitable for carbon based life forms. Then all you need is water, and the correct chemicals, which naturally combine to begin life. Then by the process of evolution, you then have creatures that can rationalize their own existence. God is not necessary in this process.
*1 http://en.wikipedia.org...
*2 http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't usually do this, but I shall pose a moralistic argument, solely because I have enough characters left. This riddle was posed by Epicurus.

http://leados.blogs.com...

Basically, it is irrational to claim that a god is omnipotent and all good.

Also, because my opponent is claiming the supernatural, it is his job to provide evidence.

Good luck to pro.
Debate Round No. 1
TG2333

Pro

a machine can't be created without it's creator,inventor and either evolutionize but only if the creator made it like that,do you know that the guy who made the theory of the bigbang was a priest ? he found it in the torah, scientists found it interesting because it existed in the quran, the bible and the torah, so they started studying and observing the universe and making theories,until they got the bigbang theory or thats what the priest called it, i know right ? i was shocked yesterday when i knew it.

******Basically, there are billions of planets........... you then have creatures that can rationalize their own existence*****

yes i agree with everything your saying, but this doesn't prove anything, a system can't be programmed on it's own, either evolution, atheists have this idea in there head that god creates life using a magic stick, no it's not like that, there's evolution, i believe in it cause it is theory in the scientific community and it's a fact in the quran, the quran has many hints to how life begins at earth, but not confirmed on what does it mean, theres alot of scientific verses that was mentioned before 1400 years ago.

if you heard someone knocking on the door, and you asked who is this guy knocking ? you go and open it to find nobody, but the door did knock and it is impossible to knock it self.

no matter how many and how many theories or facts your gonna tell me on how did the bigbang start there will be always a beginning for it when everything was black and silence and nothing existed besides god.

another example, there a debate going on between an atheist and a muslim, so the atheist was waiting for him to come, laughing saying that he is afraid to stand in front of me with the audience, so after two hours or so the muslim came, and they asked him why were you late ? he said that there was no taxi, and i didn't have a car, so i threw a screw driver, it took it a while until it turned into a car, they asked him are you crazy ? then he said, no you're the one who's crazy saying that everything happened by itself.

time didn't exsist before the bigbang so i don't know how did the antimatter and matter get to exist from nothing when there was no time and there was nothing.

did you ever see steve jobs building a well done pc with a nuclear bomb ? i don't think so.

i'll be looking at these links you sent me ,I will be waiting for your response

good luck to you too
Lordgrae

Con

"you go and open it to find nobody, but the door did knock and it is impossible to knock it self."

Yes, but that comes from the experience that we have. We have never seen a door knock itself, and we have seen a door be knocked many times. We see paintings that have had painters, and yet never see a painting without one. However, we have no past experience with universe creation. Therefore, we have no past experience to determine whether it should have a creator. We grow plants, however we see plants grow on their own, it doesn't need a grower. Since we have no past experience on universe creation however, the extrapolation from door knocking to universe creation is illogical.

"did you ever see steve jobs building a well done pc with a nuclear bomb ? i don't think so."

Well this is just a gross misunderstanding of the big bang. Basically, it just spread particles very quickly, after becoming super dense. Then these particles are attracted to each other because of magnetism and gravity. Then we have planets, some have life, and some can eventually intelligently affect the things around them such as build computers. Another gross extrapolation of previous data.

And if the universe is so complex that it requires a creator, then where is god's creator? How can your god be above the logic that you just now employed. If god can be eternal and beyond time, then why can't matter and energy?

The fact that science cannot answer the question of whether god exists , and it says "I don't know" often is a strength, not a weakness. Instead of inserting fairy tales and tribal beliefs into what it doesn't know, science makes no assumptions, and often attempts to disprove what it has proven.

Religions of the past said that the earth was flat (in Job it says like a wax seal which is not 3 dimensional. It is clear that it means circular, but not spherical.), it said spontaneous generation occurred, that disease was caused by demons, and that the earth is the center of the universe. And yet all of these things are wrong. Religion hides in the gaps of our understanding, and when we remove it from a gap by filling it in with science, it moves on to another one. There will always be something we don't know, but inserting the god myth into what we don't know isn't helping.

You are also claiming a deistic god, or a god with undefined properties. This is an unfalsifiable hypothesis meaning that it cannot be disproven. For example, you could say god is blue, but if I proved that god couldn't be blue, you could simply change it's properties to be something else. A god with defined properties however is falsifiable. I have run out of characters, so I will argue this in the next round.

http://www.miladisplays.com...

Here is a picture of a wax seal. Notice how it is shaped like a circle, and not like a sphere. The Jews believed the earth was flat, and so did the Christians and Muslims.
Debate Round No. 2
TG2333

Pro

****We grow plants, however we see plants grow on their own, it doesn't need a grower*****

Yes, you planted that plant, it didn't plant it self, so this example is a fail, god created the big bang and it exploded on it's own no need for him to do anything, it's if he made it automatic.

***Well this is just a gross misunderstanding of the big bang. Basically....Another gross extrapolation of previous data.***

you misunderstood what i said, i mean that this explosion no matter how much big it is, it won't create a masterpiece with no mistakes and really organized because it was an explosion, don't till me evolution because evolution can't correct it, cause evolution isn't something, if it did correct the universe then what are you saying is that atoms have brains ? they had it all planned ?, time didn't exist before the bigbang either evalotion.

***And if the universe is so complex that it requires a creator, then where is god's creator? How can your god be above the logic that you just now employed. If god can be eternal and beyond time, then why can't matter and energy?****

1_then where is god's creator?
_first of all if god had a creator that doesn't make him god, god creates and not gets created, besides you don't know yet how the universe was created and you wanna know how did god get created ?, even if theres information about it, you can't understand it, humans are limited to understanding things , it's like going back in time to when humans were in caves, if you tried explaining to them that we went to the moon they won't get it, it just won't get into their minds, they would think that you have magical powers, you wanna know how did he get created ? after you die you can go and ask him, and he's gonna tell you that this god created him, then your gonna go to the other one and asks him who created you ?, and he's gonna say this guy created me, and so it goes on, so i can't answer you this but only god knows.

2_ If god can be eternal and beyond time, then why can't matter and energy?
_matter and energy aren't gods, there are things, just like rocks and trees they have a beginning, and saying that you can believe that the universe always existed and not believing that god always existed doesn't make sense, why can't you believe that god always existed but you can believe the universe always existed ?, it's like if you're just trying to make your self believe that theres no god.

***Religions of the past said that the earth was flat... we don't know isn't helping****

yes you are right, everybody believed that earth was flat, but you can't say religions, cause the quran never said that earth is flat, and please don't look up on the internet about these stuff.

***You are also claiming a deistic god, or a god with undefined properties.****

No i'm not, what do you want me to say about god ?
Lordgrae

Con

"you misunderstood what i said, i mean that this explosion no matter how much big it is, it won't create a masterpiece with no mistakes and really organized because it was an explosion,"

Again, the fact that it came from an explosion means nothing. Particles attract one another, and eventually form planets and life. The big bang, is really just a movement from a high c

"cause evolution isn't something",

Ignoring the poor grammar and spelling, I shall assume that he is either typing this from a phone or idevice, or that English is not his first language, evolution is not an object. Neither are the laws of nature, they are simply things that we see occurring under normal circumstances. None of these laws have any power, they just are trends of nature. Evolution is a natural trend that occurs under certain circumstances.

"if it did correct the universe then what are you saying is that atoms have brains ? they had it all planned ?, time didn't exist before the bigbang either evalotion."

No atoms did not have it planned, they have certain properties, that cause them to join in ways that create life and matter. So when atoms spread out from superdense areas, it was bound to happen that they would join.

", besides you don't know yet how the universe was created and you wanna know how did god get created ?"

Well, religion is the one claiming to have the answers, atheists do not claim to know. I claim to know nothing except the miniscule amount of information science provides. I have no idea about the beginning, but the fact that I admit that is not a weakness, it's a strength. If you claim to have answers to things that we cannot know, then you must truly have those answers. Doubt is the weapon of the atheist. Atheists do not know whether or not there is a god. It would be irrational to claim that there is no god. However, I see no evidence for a god, especially a theistic god, and I have no reason to suspect that any benevolent being would judge me for being a good person, yet not being gullible enough to believe, and lucky enough to believe the right religion.

"so i can't answer you this but only god knows."

Nice cop out. So instead of saying that you don't know, you claim that the information is beyond my reach. Very smooth.

" why can't you believe that god always existed but you can believe the universe always existed ?"

I believe that anything could have always existed. However, I believe that just because there is a way that god could have existed does not mean he did. I also do not believe that the universe is infinite, because there is no evidence either way, so assuming the positive in the face of doubt is irrational.

"cause the quran never said that earth is flat"

Sura, 88:20. I used the internet, then checked with my own copy of the Quran, and it accepts the previous books as the previous words of god

"what do you want me to say about god"

Maybe make a claim for YOUR god, instead of one that makes a claim for A god.
Debate Round No. 3
TG2333

Pro

****Sura, 88:20. I used the internet, then checked with my own copy of the Quran, and it accepts the previous books as the previous words of god***

**وإِلَى والارض كيف سطحت** were you reading the english version ? cause it doesn't translate it in specific way , you right now how do you look at things ? والارض it has two meaning it's either earth or ground, in arabic when telling someone to sit on the ground, you tell him to sit on earth(the ground), in this verse he's talking how he made the ground flat, cause when looking in front of you, you see things flat and not spherical, and now another thing of course is that arabic has these symbols
وَإِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ do you see the difference ? it adds a lot of meanings, alot of people understand the quran in a wrong way cause of the internet, a lot of poeple are trying to change it, if you please can check this link that would be awesome! this will explain everything in a better way.

****I also do not believe that the universe is infinite**

yes the universe isn't infinite but it is always expanding, until now the bigbang is still happenning, atoms. gas, are still spreading because of the explosion, and when it stops expanding the gravity will take over, and everything will be pulled to the center of the big bang and so on the big bang happens again, but this is still a theory, but if you were planning to get out from this universe, your gonna find it infinite from your point of view cause of how big it is, the quran mentions the universe expanding,

***Nice cop out. So instead of saying that you don't know, you claim that the information is beyond my reach. Very smooth***

well you should respect that, cause when i asked you how did the big bang get created, you didn't really say how, and i respected that cause i know you don't have an answer for me, and how am i suppose to know how god appeared ? the quran,bible, and the torah they don't talk about how god was created, they prove that god exists.

****Well, religion is the one claiming to have the answers.........

i don't claim to have the answers, i never said so.

***No atoms did not have it planned, they have certain properties, that cause them to join in ways that create life and matter. So when atoms spread out from superdense areas, it was bound to happen that they would join***

imagine if a spider now evolved to have a 7th leg, how did the atom do that ? or the brain?, it would be enjoyable listening to you talking about this.

*****Ignoring the poor grammar and spelling........they just are trends of nature. Evolution is a natural trend that occurs under certain circumstances*****

sorry for my poor grammar, i do believe in evolution, because it was mentioned in the quran, it doesn't explain it but it did mention it, i wanna know how does evolution destroy the idea of god existing ?
Lordgrae

Con

"were you reading the english version"

Yes. I'm sorry. The confusion must come from the translation. I apologize.

"the quran mentions the universe expanding,"

Just because it guessed something right does not make it right. Many other religions have guessed things that later turned out to be true.

" they prove that god exists."

How do they prove god exists. The only thing they prove seem to be that it is a belief set, not that it's true. I could claim the Baghavad Gita proves Hinduism.

"imagine if a spider now evolved to have a 7th leg, how did the atom do that ? or the brain?, it would be enjoyable listening to you talking about this."

Well, that would be a mutation. Also the spider would evolve to ave 9 legs, because they are arachnids and have eight to begin wih. Basically, their genes currently code or poteins to be asmbled to build eight legs. Then a mutation might replicate one of the "build another leg" orders, causing the body to build another leg. When DNA replicates, mistakes are made. Fortunately, most of human DNA is either uninportant if it mutates, like hair color, or completely useless storage space that doesn't do anything. Evey DNA has one or two flaws, the odds of it being a mutation in an important place is slim, and the odds of it being a mutaion that can allow the cell to reproduce is even lower. So it wasn't a choice or decision, it was a mutation created by a mistake in the replication of genes.

"how does evolution destroy the idea of god existing ?"

It doesn't necessarily disprove god. It disproves the young earth creationist god, but if you are an old earth intelligent designer, than no, it doesn't dispove god. Unfortunately I live in the US, I am taught very little about Islam, and know 2 Islamic people at my school, plus one person who wears an Islamic head covering. I know little about your beliefs. I assumed that they were similar to Christian Fundamentalists, seeing as the last person I debated Islam with had those views.

I have a question. If god is real, than how come we cannot detect him in any way? I mean, in the past people were ressurecting and walking on water and having divine lightningbolts come from nowhere. Where is all of that now? How come the moment we got photos and reliable records, all miracles became people having dreams, or people seeing things that no one else can? It seems pretty suspicious to me.

And why would god let things like storms and earthquakes happen. Do all of them deserve to die? It seems like god could kill all of the bad people, and at the same time let the children and good people live.

And if Islam is the right religion, then why isn't the middle east blessed? Instead they are the third most unstable area, followed closely by South America, arguably the most Christian region on earth, is the second most unstable. Then Afica, another heavily Islamic area (especially in the north) and Christian along the coast.
Debate Round No. 4
TG2333

Pro

***Yes. I'm sorry. The confusion must come from the translation. I apologize***

haha it's ok it happens ;)

****Just because it guessed something right does not make it right. Many other religions have guessed things that later turned out to be true***

can you prove that it was guessing ? and another thing theres no other religions, i don't think i told you this but as a muslim you can't be a muslim if you don't believe in christianity and judaism, because they are one religion, it's just stages, first came judaism then christianity and islam, but what's happening right now because of people changing the bible all the time and the torah people now think that we're the enemy, but what i'm saying is that the three religions or *stages* share the same god.

***How do they prove god exists. The only thing they prove seem to be that it is a belief set, not that it's true. I could claim the Baghavad Gita proves Hinduism.***

i don't really think theres anything to comment on this, it's like some guy coming to you and saying **what makes you so sure that evolution is right ???!! and you just look at him and say **talk to you later** lol.

***I assumed that they were similar to Christian Fundamentalists, seeing as the last person I debated Islam with had those views.****

ya like i said before, all religions are one religion, jesus is mentioned in our book more then mohamed alot of times, and mary mother of jesus is mentioned 32 times in our book and she even has her own sorah, mary is only mentioned 18 times in all 75 version of the bible, and jesus is the best prophet, but christens made him a god.

***And why would god let things like storms and earthquakes happen. Do all of them deserve to die? It seems like god could kill all of the bad people, and at the same time let the children and good people live****

first of all, every human, animal, any creatures outside of this planet, will die no matter if he's good or not, and god of course can do storms and earthquakes on his own, but these are natural disasters, and yes god can kill every bad person, but whats the point of life then ? you see for us muslims life is just a test that you take at school, you can only do the test one time, why would god kill these bad people ?, you don't know when are they gonna be good ? and it's an injustice thing to do.

***And if Islam is the right religion,**

i think i already answered you two times now in this argument about how islam works.

***then why isn't the middle east blessed***

first of all middle east isn't a special place, theres muslims all over the world, and second we humans have choices, you, me, everyone have choices to make in life, theres no such thing as fate, god doesn't have anything to do with this, if you want middle east blessed then you should start working your butt instead of sitting there praying, you want something then get up and do something and pray.

i wanna talk to you more but i have no more characters remaining
Lordgrae

Con

Okay, since this is the last round. I shall not post any new arguments. I would just like to point out that my opponent has made no arguments for his idea of a god, simply a deistic god, which is unfalsifiable, and has not proven anything. Since he has not made strong arguments for the positive, and it is a unfalsifiable hypothesis, the negative (me) should be the winner. However, if you feel that he made strong enough arguments that I did not refute, than vote for him.

"and another thing theres no other religions"

Well clearly there are. Hinduism, Celts, Deists, Pastafarianism and Mormonism, are all very different belief sets. There are more religion than offshoots of Judaism.

"life is just a test that you take at school"

Well it's a pretty bad test then. Many people are given 10 minutes to finish the test, and some a long time. Some people are born into the right religion, and some are not. It seems like a pretty poor test. And some people have a much harder life, which makes it hard to be good.

And causing something, and seeing it about to happen and doing nothing is practically the same. God could stop every storm and earthquake, or at least save some people, or make it not as bad, and yet he watches it happen. It seems almost as random as if he wasn't there.

I'm sorry for the shortness and lateness of my post, I got home a couple minutes ago from school and noticed I have ten minutes to post this. Maybe my opponent should not have jumped for joy in the comment section so soon.

And thus I end the debate. How soon the sword swings down upon the neck. However this is not my neck, it is thine. And for good or for evil death shall remain, and you will understand the path of Grae.

-Lord Grae, original writing.
Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TetsuRiken 3 years ago
TetsuRiken
Most voters are biased.
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
true it should be 6
Posted by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
I admit that you should have won, but the fact that all 7 points went to you was annoying. How did you win spelling and grammar?
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
you know lord, "saying sorry it's because of the translation" alone well let you lose, because you brought invalid information to the debate, thinking that it's right, and then worst of all saying sorry to your opponent in a debate
Posted by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
I still think that the voter was biased.
Posted by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
I really cannot understand his vote comment. It seems like he gave reasons to vote for me, yet he awarded all 7 points to pro. Perhaps I am misreading it.
Posted by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
Excuse me voter Antidoter, are you sure you wanted to give spelling and grammar to TG2333? His spelling was terrible, he forgot capitalization and punctuation far more than me.
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
it seems like my opponent forgot his round
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
skepticlankan i'm not gonna start debating with you because i'm already in a debate and second you don't know what are you talking about.
Posted by SkepticLankan 3 years ago
SkepticLankan
I would also like pro to notice, or even con to take advantage, this argument.

"Universe is very complex indeed, but to put something as complex as the universe, the creator itself has to be even more complex. And most creationists fail to apply that same assumption to the creator. They often get away by saying something like 'creator was never created' "
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by TheAntidoter 3 years ago
TheAntidoter
TG2333LordgraeTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct goes to pro due to calling out of "cop-out", as well as shorting the character limit by proposing a link and not an argument. He might as well have linked his argument to a link, and make new argument. In addition, the Infinite Regression would not make him the most powerful, and thus he did answer Lordgrae, thus argument, thus god. is. Spelling errors include "ave" instead of have, capital letters missing, as well as "and why would god let storms and earthquakes happen" needs a Question mark. Video by pro was reliable, unlike the mischevious link by Con and the Wikipedia links that prove nothing.