The Instigator
soontobelawyer
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
cody30228
Con (against)
Winning
45 Points

keep Christ in christmas

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/6/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,839 times Debate No: 1436
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (17)

 

soontobelawyer

Pro

Christ should be in christmas because thats how the holiday came out the birthday of jesus christ and they shouldnt change it now because they think that jesus shouldnt be in christmas
cody30228

Con

Can you be more specific please in keeping Christ in Christmas.
Individual level, Government level, etc.
Here are some generic reasons why it doesn't matter
1. Christ, as many scriptures point to, was not born in December. Christmas was placed on December 25 in Ancient Rome to fall on the same date of a pagan holiday so more people would feel comfortable with the new religion
2. Governments should not be celebrating Christmas, because our government represents one that has no religious involvement. So our government should not celebrate Christmas
3. I have no clue what you mean by this on a personal basis. Unless you are talking about Christmas being about presents? Please elaborate.
Debate Round No. 1
soontobelawyer

Pro

If you know all of this dont ask me to be specific argue with me I still think christ should stay in christmas no matter what you can say your a different religion no matter what the holiday was made for him and any way it doesnt matter what day christ was born back then any person that wasnt white couldnt have a birth certificate
cody30228

Con

I apologize, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
This is what I gathered
1. it doesn't matter your religion
2. doesn't matter when he was born b/c they didn't have birth certificates

I still do not know what you mean by keep Christ in Christmas
So I will just state many arguments why your position is wrong

Christmas is a holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Jesus is a religious person. IF we make Christmas centered around Christ, the government can not celebrate it. They can acknowledge it. But they can't celebrate it. Why, because it is a religious holiday. Obviously our government celebrates it. So in the government, Christ can not be kept in Christmas.

The Christmas that we know today comes from Hollywood, Coke a Cola, and Children's Books. Nothing more. If Christ was the center of Christmas, there would be no more of this commercial crap. there would be no more Christmas trees. No more presents, no more hallmark holiday. It would no longer be anything but a trip to church. Imagine life without Christmas as we know it. The happiest season of the year is so because of all the Bing Crosby songs, pictures with Santa, and presents under a tree. It is a time for family bonding, and with the commercialization of it, the bonding would be gone.

But as I said, you still have not told me what you mean by keeping Christ in Christmas. Until you do, you can not win this debate. Because so far, you have not made any points.
Debate Round No. 2
soontobelawyer

Pro

soontobelawyer forfeited this round.
cody30228

Con

Since my opponent failed to makes any arguments, I extend all previous arguments made and will respond to a comment below.

"Our Government does NOT "represent one that has no religious involvement". People often misinterpret the establishment clause to mean "Separation of Church and State", that's not what it does. It simply prevents the Government from mandating a state sponsored religion. It does not prevent the Government from recognizing religion and it's importance to our society, however. In short, it is to protect religion from the Government, not the other way around.

And our Government most certainly does celebrate Christmas. Did you receive mail on Dec. 25th? Did public school children have to attend classes that day? No. Why? Because the religious tradition of Christmas is recognized by the Government as a federal holiday."

If the Government is supposed to protect religion, how can it sponsor one certain religion? I have told you the XMAS is a commercial holiday to many, and by Christianizing it, the government will be endorsing a religion. And if it only endorses one religion, it is not protecting the other religions.

The Govt. might celebrate a commercial version of XMAS. That's fine. Most people do. It's when the Govt. hangs crosses, manger scenes, and holds prayer that it becomes a religious holiday. This is what would happen if we put Chrsit back into Christmas. We know the Govt. does not do this. Why? Prayer is still banned in schools, nativity scenes are still banned from public property, and crosses are not hanging on govt. buildings.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
Then the government needs to establish recognition of ALL religious holidays, not just single out Christianity's stolen holidays.

If you don't consider congress to mean 'government as a whole' then every state or local government could dictate any Christian law they wanted to as long as 'Congress' didn't establish it. That's called a theocracy.

I would like hear why you think the ACLU doesn't fight for the constitution. That's their whole thing. Maybe you disagree with the result, but that doesn't take away the fact that their entire organization is to protect your Civil liberties established by the constitution.
Posted by Lastphoenix0 9 years ago
Lastphoenix0
he know some people that are no christians celebrate chrismas what about them they also have a right to do that you dont have to be crhistian to celebrate it not only that is not based on crhsit tians is base of what ppl belive
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
Attrition, There is nothing in the establishment clause that prevents Christmas being recognized, either. Making Christmas a federal holiday in no way, shape, or form establishes Christianity as a federal religion. It simply recognizes the importance of Christmas to the republic.

Allowing religious symbols on public property ALSO doesn't violate the establishment clause.

Absolutely Christmas was invented to appeal to the pagans, and I believe I've stated such. It soon became ingrained as an important Christian holiday. At the time it became a Federal holiday, it obviously was such.

Finally, no, the ACLU does NOT "fight for Constitution at all turns". The establishment clause CLEARLY states it applies only to Congress. When the ACLU attacks Christmas on the state and local Government levels, it's interfering in a completely different realm from what the 1st amendment says, let alone what the spirit of it was.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
mmadderom, whether or not our government recognizes the Christmas holiday is irrelevant. Just because our government allows something, doesn't make it right. Such as allowing public property to promote a single religion which is CLEARLY prohibited by the constitution. Once again the 1st Amendment:

Congress shall make NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The ACLU fights for Constitution at all turns, it has sued school systems that banned certain religious expressions such as the Muslim head dress(the Hijab), Jewish beany hat thing(the kippah), and others. So if you're against the constitution, then yeah, the ACLU isn't for you.

And to be clear, the Con's assertion that Christmas was established as a political tool to help make the Christian religion more palatable to the local mostly pagan population is true. However, Christmas coincides with the Winter Solstice since pagans celebrated nature, the same goes for Easter and the Spring Equinox. One celebrates the cycle of death of things, the other celebrates re-birth. They almost got it right.
Posted by Lastphoenix0 9 years ago
Lastphoenix0
ok chritstian they dont belive in saints right like valentines st.patrick day n so on n so forth right but christams there is a thing called sanata clause right well his real name is saint nicolas so thats a thing to piont out well that wat i think or belive is a godd point to discuss about
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
That is why I said to scratch out the word primarily as this would merely be in response to one of the Con's arguments.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"even though I'm not religious I still celebrate the other parts of the holiday; Santas and trees and all"

You think decorated trees aren't part of the "religious" nature of Christmas? I beg to differ. Even Santa Claus has his roots in religion. These weren't just the creations of some brilliant marketer.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
BTW, I voted "con" in this debate. Matters not that I don't agree with you, you simply had the better arguments...if you can call those arguments from your opponent. Oh, the Irony of someone screen named "soontobelawyer" putting forth some of the worst arguments I've ever seen...
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"If I were the pro, I would have primarily argued that Christmas and Yule (which is STILL celebrated) are not the same thing ( an understanding of the background from both can lead one to conclude this)"

Now you are getting into the origin of Christmas and why the date of Dec. 25th was chosen. That has little significance to the argument in my view. The Yule is a pagan tradition, with a feast to honor Thor (a God), meaning it's STILL based in religion.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"If the Government is supposed to protect religion, how can it sponsor one certain religion?"

I think this is where we are not meshing. By recognizing Christmas as a Federal holiday the Gov't is in no way sponsoring Christianity, it is simply recognizing it and the importance of it in the formation of our Country and our laws.

There is no sponsorship. Martin Luther King Jr's birthday is ALSO a federal holiday. That's not a sponsorship of King or even a declaration of his teachings, after all he advocated "civil disobedience" which is, in effect, breaking the law. It is simply a recognition of his important place in U.S. history. BTW, Dr. King was a Christian preacher...
17 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Lastphoenix0 9 years ago
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