The Instigator
imaboss05
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Yep
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

kobe bryant vs Lebron James

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/7/2012 Category: Sports
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,028 times Debate No: 25484
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

imaboss05

Pro

I would just like my opponent to take into consideration that while stats are important they are not everything. In this debate I am breaking every aspect of each players games which means it might be unsettled but just two of us voicing our opinions. This includes there athleticism and advantages/disadvantages.

With that being said, I'd like this to be very unbiased, and a good intelligent debate.

I'd also invite my opponent and any other user to watch this video first on Kobe Bryant

And this video on Lebron James

Lets begin.

Kobe vs Lebron(scoring overall)
Well Lebron statistically speaking does average more points, more rebounds and assists then Kobe does. BUT like I said there is more to is then stats. Lets take into consideration that Kobe's first few seasons he didn't start which hurt his career averages, and then when he did he wasn't the primary scorer until Shaq left. Lebron was always number 1, which is why he is quite a ways ahead in career totals. But look at Kobe's stats when he didn't have Shaq he averaged 35.4, 31.6 and 28.3 points a game. Then he got another all star in Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum began to blossum. Some reasons as to why Lebrons stats are better

Kobe vs Lebron (Scoring and %'s)
Lebron also has a higher FG% almost every season. Except in the two shooting categories, 3 point field goals, and free throws. Kobe has beat him in both categories every season and in career totals as well. So why does Lebron have a higer FG%? Most of his points come from inside the paint. This is just an estimate, but I would say about 65% of Lebrons made field goals are layups and dunks. Kobe is probably down to about 30%. With that being said it's alot easier to make layups and dunks then it is to shoot a jump shot. Why do you think centers always have such high FG%?

Kobe vs Lebron(Scoring-Shooting)
I've already proven Kobe is a better free throw shooter, and a 3 point shooter. Now lets prove his mid range game. First off, Lebron is a lot more athletic then Kobe is which makes it harder to double team or even play him very closely because he can easily run by you for a dunk or layup because of how quick he is. Not to mention he has another top 5 player on his team. He is also a better passer then Kobe I will give Lebron that no questions asked, so he can always dish the ball to a good 3 point shooter if he were double teamed. Kobe on the other hand, is almost double teamed the entire game unless he is behind the 3 point line. And because he is older and alittle bit slower, players can play him tighter and make it even more difficult. With all that being said, Kobe bryant still makes more difficult unorthodox shots on a consistent basis then anyone else who has ever played this game. That includes Mj. Kobe takes tougher shots, is covered closer,has better outside and free throw shooting then lebron and still puts up just as good if not better numbers. Thats saying something.

Kobe vs Lebron( assists)
Lebron wins. He gets more assists by almost 2. But if were going to say someone is better based off of assists then shouldn't Magic be better then Mj and Rajon Rondo be the best player in the NBA? Assists are very important don't get me wrong but it is a bad argument to have when comparing players skill levels, especially because half of it depends on other players.

Kobe vs Lebron (rebounding)
Lebron rebounds better too. BUT he plays a position/positions that are much closer to the basket then Kobe's guard postion. Plus Lebron is 3 inches taller and can jump higher. Not talent, just athleticism and position. Not too good of an argument here either.

Kobe vs Lebron (defense)
This is open to interpretation. If your wanting someone who can cover anyone and do a pretty damn good job Lebrons your guy. But straight lockdown defender that you want at the end of the game covering the other teams best player, I would take Kobe. But it sort of just depends on the situation, that one is a toss up.

Kobe vs Lebron (clutch)
Do I even need to discuss this one...?

With all that being said, based off of stats alone Lebron is the greatest there is no questions asked and no doubt in my mind. But when you break down each players game's and watch them and see how they earn their stats it sort of makes you think. Talent and completeness of the game Kobe is better, then anyone besides Mj and maybe even him. But thats for another time. I just think the better overall player with overall talent and the most complete skill set is Kobe. I mean just cause Wilt averaged so many points and rebounds would you really say he is better then Mj? He just had to dunk a basketball on guys that were a foot shorter then him. He wasn't much of a dribbler or shooter.

Oh also with Kobe and Lebron. Most, not all, but most NBA experts say Kobe is better in the low post because of his aggressiveness and footwork. I don't know where I stand on that, I think they're both good, but just something to take into consideration.

Please let me here your counter arguments for anything I have posted!
Yep

Con

Hello Ladies and Gentleman! (And otherwordly creatures if Imabench is reading this). Pro has the Burden of Proof (BOP) meaning that Con only needs to refute Pro's argumentation to win. Pro used round 1 for argumentation, so there will be no acceptance round. Although this debate wasn't specified, it's clear that Pro is siding with Kobe Bryant of the Las Angeles Lakers. I will be siding with LeBron James, originally from the Cleveland Cavaliers and now with the Miami Heat.

Without further adeau, LETS GET IT ON!

JUST A HEADS UP- My OPPONENT HAS NO SOURCES

"With that being said, I'd like this to be very unbiased, and a good intelligent debate."
Clearly this debate will be full of bias, because Pro picked a side that clearly reflects his choice on who the better player is.

1- "Well Lebron statistically speaking does average more points, more rebounds and assists then Kobe does." [5]

That's right, He does! in fact, that alone could sum up my entire argumentation and make the voters vote con. Thanks for the argument! This statement alone will come to haunt pro in the later rounds... REMEMBER IT JUDGES!

BUT like I said there is more to is then stats.

So the entire argument rests on the assumption that Kobe has better teammates then LeBron James? Well, Let's look at some statistics of each of their teammates to determine who has it harder currently.

Pau Gasol, teammate of Kobe Bryant and the second highest scoring Laker (behind Bryant), has averaged 18.7 Points per game in his career. [1]

Dwayne Wade, teammate of LeBron James and the second highest scorer on the Heat (behind James), has averaged 25.2 Points per game in his career. [2]

Chris Bosh, another member of the Heat, and the third highest scorer on the team, has averaged 19.2 Point per game in his career.

What do these statistics show? LeBron has it HARDER than Kobe, you have 3 Titans on one team, Three players, two of which AVERAGE OVER 25 POINTS PER GAME. My opponents entire first argument has been disproven, because Con has proven James' teamates score higher than Kobe's, and therefore it is harder for him to score than it is for Kobe.

2-"Lebron also has a higher FG% almost every season."

Thank you opponent, for once again giving the judges more reason to vote for LeBron James. Correct me if i'm wrong, but a players stats usually reflect how good they are, especially if their stats are consistent. Pro just keeps giving you reasons to vote for LeBron James, and doesn't seem to even realise it.

"Except in the two shooting categories, 3 point field goals, and free throws."

Another assumption has been brought up, that free throws, (Stationary shots) and 3 pointers both represent a better player. There are only 3 shots in basketball, Free throws, 3's, and regular 2 pointers. Clearly LeBron James does focus mainly on 2 point shots, however this in no way gives ground to Pro. The overall argument pro had was the field goal percentage, not the type of shot. On top of that, yet another helpful gesture by my opponent has been brought up!

"So why does Lebron have a higer FG%? Most of his points come from inside the paint. This is just an estimate, but I would say about 65% of Lebrons made field goals are layups and dunks. Kobe is probably down to about 30%. With that being said it's alot easier to make layups and dunks then it is to shoot a jump shot. Why do you think centers always have such high FG%?"

Theres a few problems with this statement, for starters, my opponent assumes that field goals are only layups and dunks, and that 2 point field goals during a moving game are easier than a FREE THROW (Stationary attempt at the two point line less than 10 feet away from the basket with no chance of being blocked/guarded). There's no sources showing LeBron doesn't shoot, on top of that in this statement my opponent states he gives an estimate thats completely unwarranted, giving no factual or statistical analysis past his little guessing game. He then asks the question why do centers always have such a high FG%? Well, funny thing about that. LeBron James is NOT A CENTER. [4]

". Now lets prove his mid range game. First off, Lebron is a lot more athletic then Kobe is which makes it harder to double team or even play him very closely because he can easily run by you for a dunk or layup because of how quick he is. Not to mention he has another top 5 player on his team. "

I smell Contradictions. In the last argument my opponent said LeBron is better in the paint, and at mid range, now he's changing it to Kobe. That's fine, but where are the sources proving this? Also, My opponent gives me EVEN MORE ARGUMENTATION! He says Lebron is more athletic than Kobe, but doesn't realise this is helping Con's case, proving LeBron is a better Basketball player than Kobe. Then he ends his little speech with a top 5 player excuse, which in his very first argument (quoted up above) he states Kobe was the one who had all the good players so he couldn't flourish. Judges not only is this argument based in speculation, my opponent is essentially contrading everything said in the last two arguments.

Kobe vs Lebron( assists)[4][5]
Kobe vs Lebron (defense)[4][5]
Kobe vs Lebron (rebounding)[4][5]

So the following sources cited plus the concessions by my opponent already disprove all three of these arguments, theres not much more I can say past that, because my opponent is basically faltering in argumentation at this point.

"Kobe vs Lebron (clutch)
Do I even need to discuss this one...?"

Yes, you do, because i have a source proving thats far off from reality. It is in fact LBJ (Not Lyndon Baines Johnson) who is the better clutch, rather than the commonly preffered Black Mamba. [7] The source cited shows that Kobe is 7 for 27 for Clutch Shots, whereas James is 5 of 12. This statistic was taken on June 19th, 2012, and it's quite clear the 27 year old James has far more prowess than Kobe Bryant (Age 34), who is 7 years older than him, and has been in the league 7 more years than James.

CONCLUSION

My opponents entire case is based around speculation, assumptions, and clear bias. My opponent concedes a boatload of essential arguments already proving LBJ is in fact better than the Black Mamba. My opponent also has contradiction after contradiction placed in his case, ranging from a simple statement to a key argument. It's only the first round, and yet this debate is over.

Vote Con!

[1]http://espn.go.com...
[2]http://espn.go.com...
[3]http://espn.go.com...
[4]http://espn.go.com...
[5] http://bleacherreport.com...
[6]http://espn.go.com...
[7]http://bleacherreport.com...
Debate Round No. 1
imaboss05

Pro

So the entire argument rests on the assumption that Kobe has better teammates then LeBron James?

-No. Clearly my opponent did not read my earlier statements. Kobe has always had a good teammate to carry some of the scoring load. For example Shaq from the year 1996(when Kobe entered the league) to the year 2005(when he left Kobe and the Lakers) had averaged 21.7 points a game from that time period. Kobe also had a veteran hall of famer in Karl Malone. And he wasn't the featured scorer and playmaker the way Lebron is. Enough said. Lebron until Miami has never had good players and that's why he has been so good statistically. Look at this last season, wasn't Kobe ahead in scoring of 27 year old Lebron who is bigger faster and stronger and more athletically gifted?

What do these statistics show? LeBron has it HARDER than Kobe, you have 3 Titans on one team, Three players, two of which AVERAGE OVER 25 POINTS PER GAME

-I don't know if my opponent keeps up with the NBA, but Lebron has only been with this team for 2 years. Kobe has played with "titans" or all stars every year except for 3, in which he scored more points then Lebron all 3 years.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but a players stats usually reflect how good they are, especially if their stats are consistent

-If that is the case then Tyson Chandler is the best shooter in the NBA because he has the highest FG%. Like I said, Kobe plays on the perimeter and shoots JUMP SHOTS a lot more then Lebron who shoots easy layups and dunks.


Clearly LeBron James does focus mainly on 2 point shots, however this in no way gives ground to Pro.


-Focussing on 2 pointer mid-range jump shot and focussing on getting the basket and making a lay-up and dunk are two different things. Watch Lebron James highlights all over the net and let me know if you find one that isn't full of just that. Kobe has video's of him doing nothing but making clutch shots and difficult shots. Like I said earlier FG% doesn't make someone a better pure shooter. My opponent needs to educate himself on the difficulty level of layups and dunks and how much higher it is for contested jump shots.


, for starters, my opponent assumes that field goals are only layups and dunks, and that 2 point field goals during a moving game are easier than a FREE THROW (Stationary attempt at the two point line less than 10 feet away from the basket with no chance of being blocked/guarded).


-You have contradicted yourself. And played right into my argument. You are 100% right. Free throws are the easiest shot in the game of basketball. With that being said, if Lebron is a better shooter then Kobe why is Kobe's FT% always better? Why is his 3pt % always better? Lebron isn't that great of a shooter, and I mean jump shooter. He knows one thing put your head down and lay it in or dunk. That showcases that one skill of getting to the basket. Note the word one. Where as Kobe can back you down in the post,(he is better then Lebron in the low post and ESPN anyalist can confirm that) kobe can drive by you like Lebron, he can face up and hit a jumpshot with a hand or double team in his face, he can hit a three point shot, and he can draw fouls and get fT's. He has a much wider and consisten way of scoring over Lebron. And you missed the point of the center part. Centers DO NOTHING BUT DUNK AND LAYUPS. The easiest in game shots in basketball, which is why there FG% is higher. Get what I mean? DUNKS AND LAYUPS ARE EASIER SHOTS. It does not make you a better "shooter"


My opponent gives me EVEN MORE ARGUMENTATION! He says Lebron is more athletic than Kobe, but doesn't realise this is helping Con's case, proving LeBron is a better Basketball player than Kobe


-Yeah Lebron is more athletic then Kobe. So is Shannon Brown. You going to say he is better too because he is more athletic? My opponent needs to understand that there is alot more to scoring and being good then stats. If Lebron shot 65% from the field, but took nothing but layups and dunks and averaged 28.0 points per game, and Kobe shot 48% from the field and averaged 27.0 points per game would you really say Lebron is a more talented player? I'll go more into detail. By talent I mean being the most diverse and great at everything. Kobe is great at everything. Lebron isn't. You don't need statistics to prove that, you just need to watch both players. Nobody will ever say a center is more talented then a guard even if they have better FG% and more points because centers don't need much skill besides layups and dunks. Make sense to everyone? I'm not saying that Lebron is a center or takes only layups and dunks, but the majority of his shots are. I don't need statistics to prove it, and if my opponent watches Lebron play he knows exactly what I am talking about.


Yes, you do, because i have a source proving thats far off from reality. It is in fact LBJ (Not Lyndon Baines Johnson) who is the better clutch, rather than the commonly preffered Black Mamba. [7] The source cited shows that Kobe is 7 for 27 for Clutch Shots, whereas James is 5 of 12. This statistic was taken on June 19th, 2012, and it's quite clear the 27 year old James has far more prowess than Kobe Bryant (Age 34), who is 7 years older than him, and has been in the league 7 more years than James

Well my oponnents source is wrong. Kobe Bryant hit 7 gane winning or game tying shot's in the year 2009 alone. I couldn't tell you the last time Lebron made one, besides his 3 pointer against Orlando in the playoffs. (sorry for not providing a source it isnt really to difficult to look up his game winners from that season and count them)

Ending point

-My opponents whole argument is trying to poke holes in my original, but yet he fails to provide any kind of proof for Lebron being the better skilled player. Again by skilled I mean diversely great, and can do everything great, not just somethings. Again I don't need a statistic, just basic knowledge of the game and a T.V or computer to watch Kobe and Lebron play. As for my Shaq statistics they came straight from NBA.com. As did Kobe Bryants points per game being higher then Lebrons the 3 years before Pau Gasol, and after Shaq. I think my opponent lacks knowledge and intelligence on the topic and shows lack of understanding because while this is based on who's better, I clearly stated this is based less on statistical evidence. Which even with it, Kobe still matches up with Lebron. It is based on how each player got their stats and who showcases a wider variety of ways to get those stats. With that being said vote pro for Kobe Bryant being more complete and talented then Lebron James
Yep

Con

Hello Ladies and Gentleman! Welcome once again to the third round of the LeBron vs Kobe debate!

In this debate I will outline the following:

1) Attacks left completely untouched
2) The impact of having NO SOURCES by Pro
3) The reason my arguments are all still valid
4) Why a vote for con is 100% (outine through IMPACTS)

1) EXTENSIONS

Assumptions argument from round 2.

IMPACT- As Pro has failed to give any relevant (meaning legitimate) non-biased information in this debate, all of pro's argumentation is based on speculation. A vote for con ensures a vote for legitimacy, and factuality rather than just pure opinion.

Contradictions from Round 2.

IMPACT- Con's attacks have already proven there are loop holes in Pros argumentation. A conflicting side is a side that cannot be voted for, because my opponents arguments are all conflicting with one another (for example, he states kobe has it harder b/c he has better players on his team which i quickly rebut, then he says lebron has a top 5 player on his team which kobe does not have) PICK A SIDE PRO, until you do, it's a con vote for my boy LBJ.

Stats argument from Round 2.

IMPACT- My opponent assumes all the judges will be well informed in the game of basketball, that all the judges will know LeBron James' and Kobe Bryant's statistics by heart. This is a ludicrous assumption. Pro is NOT GIVING YOU ANY WAY TO PROVE KOBE IS BETTER THAN LEBRON, because as he states, Stats don't matter. Ok, if that was the case, how would the judges be able to distinguish who the better player is? My opponent assumes the judges all watch basketball as well, in a debate like this you must have evidence and solvency (in this case, how to vote for the better player) to back up your claims. My opponent has failed to give either. So it's an easy vote for LBJ once again.

2) NO SOURCES IN A STATISTICALLY RELEVANT DEBATE

IMPACT- PRO HAS NO SOURCES TO BACK UP ANY CLAIMS, AND SIMPLY STATES THAT NO STATISTICS ARE NEEDED. THIS IS A DEBATE, WHERE TWO SIDES HAVE AN ORGANIZED DISCUSSION ABOUT A TOPIC. THIS TOPIC REQUIRES EVIDENCE TO BACK UP CLAIMS, AS THIS IS A SPORT AND NEEDS STATISTICS, FACTUAL EXAMPLES, AND EVIDENCE OF EACH CLAIM. PRO STILL HAS NOT GIVEN A SINGLE SOURCE PAST NBA.COM WHICH DOESN'T HAVE A DIRECT LINK TO ANY EVIDENCE, AND FAILS TO CITE ANY GOOD SOURCES. VOTE CON BASED OFF OF THAT ALONE, OPINION DOESN'T WIN A ROUND, EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A CLAIM DOES.

3) "Again I don't need a statistic, just basic knowledge of the game and a T.V or computer to watch Kobe and Lebron play. "

For starters, the NBA SEASON IS NOT HERE YET SO WE CANNOT WATCH KOBE AND LEBRON PLAY. If you are referring to past games, they provide no substantial evidence past one's own memory. Many of the judges here have never seen Kobe v LeBron, and yet may watch basketball alot. Pro assumes that all the judges know everything about the two players. If you (the judge) know every single stat, every single situation, and all the evidence from both of our claims, the result IS STILL THE SAME, LEBRON IS BETTER STATISTICALLY (PROVEN BY CON) ATHLETICALLY (CONCEDED BY PRO) AND IS A BETTER ALL AROUND PLAYER. My opponent can't just give pure opinionated comments such as "shooting a free throw is harder than shooting a mid-range jumpshot or a layup"

CONCLUSION

My opponents entire case from round 2 is the same for round 3, theres no debate here, just endless unwarranted speculation by pro. Clearly LeBron James is a better player, and clearly Con has won the round.

Debate Round No. 2
imaboss05

Pro

imaboss05 forfeited this round.
Yep

Con

Yep forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
imaboss05

Pro

imaboss05 forfeited this round.
Yep

Con

Yep forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
imaboss05

Pro

imaboss05 forfeited this round.
Yep

Con

Yep forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
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