The Instigator
ahundredhighways
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
philosopherpirate
Con (against)
Winning
22 Points

medicare and medicade should not be given to tobacco users

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/17/2007 Category: Health
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,620 times Debate No: 623
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (13)

 

ahundredhighways

Pro

something i heard from Ted Nugent, i i can agree with him

note that i do use tobacco...

but Ted was being interviewed by Glenn Beck and when the topic of medicare and medicade came up he said that "government medical coverage should not be given to people who do not take care of their bodies" and he used smoking as an example so thats what i'm using
philosopherpirate

Con

Ahundreshighways makes two separate claims and I will address them both. The first is that people who do not take care of themselves should not receive Medicare and Medicade benefits. The second is that specifically people who use tobacco should not get such benefits.
In response to the first claim, it would be a terrible idea to not give Medicare and Medicade benefits to people who do not "take care of their bodies" because that is an incredibly vague standard. What does it mean to not take care of one's body? Would you need to work out every day to get health benefits? Would you have to take vitamins everyday, never drink, never eat red meat (certainly something Ted Nugent would disagree with)? Only giving Medicare and Medicare benefits to people who take care of their bodies would require the establishment of an arbitrary government standard of health. It would be unacceptable for the government to arbitrarily exclude certain people from getting medical treatment they otherwise could not afford.
Moreover, the need to "take care of their bodies" could be used as an excuse for the government to discriminate against particular life styles or persons they find immoral or undesirable. For example, they could prevent gay and bi-sexual men from receiving benefits because they engage in a "dangerous life style." Blacks could be excluded from receiving medical care because the government believes them more likely to engage in premarital sex, unprotected sex, and drug use. We should not give the government another method to unfairly discriminate against those cultures, races, and sexual orientations it does not like.
The problem with preventing people who use tobacco from receiving Medicare and Medicade benefits is that it would prevent them from receiving treatment for non-tobacco related medical problems. Using tobacco should not prevent someone from getting an appendectomy or dialysis.
Furthermore, what counts as using tobacco? Is it daily use? Weekly? Yearly? Ever? Again, the government would be forced to draw an arbitrary line between those who get health care benefits and those who do not which is always a bad idea.
Next, what is the problem, the cost, with letting people who use tobacco or don't take care of their bodies get Medicare and Medicade benefits? The vast majority of treatment sought and given under these programs is either basic treatments that everyone needs, regardless of their health, or emergency services which, again, people need regardless of whether or not they use tobacco or take care of themselves. Preventing these people from receiving benefits would not significantly save these programs money, at least not enough to justify the thousands of people who would die as a result.
Finally, the policy of preventing tobacco users from receiving Medicare and Medicade benefits is classist. Tobacco use is much more common among the poorer classes, the very same people who are receiving Medicare and Medicade benefits. Preventing tobacco users from receiving benefits would unfairly exclude the majority of people receiving benefits from these programs. Not only would that all but destroys the effectiveness of these programs by preventing most people eligible for them from getting benefits, but does so with a standard that uniquely targets the poor over the rich.
Debate Round No. 1
ahundredhighways

Pro

ok, ya got me good points, i didn't think it out enough and ted probably didn't either but i think the thought is a good one if you could possibly set a standard
philosopherpirate

Con

cool. And because my argument has to be 100 characters in length but there is not really much of a debate anymore, I am typing this.
Debate Round No. 2
ahundredhighways

Pro

ahundredhighways forfeited this round.
philosopherpirate

Con

philosopherpirate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by ahundredhighways 9 years ago
ahundredhighways
and by the way, a few days ago i had lost the debate, it's all about votes, give it another week, i could be losing again
Posted by ahundredhighways 9 years ago
ahundredhighways
i still think if there is some way to put this into effect, it'd be a good idea

the reason i gave up is my opponent pointed something out to me that i had not considered, how to classify someone as a tobacco user, yeah i do use tobacco, maybe once a day, if that, but i just can't get a real craving for it, i've really tried believe it or not, i think that its mostly mind over matter, i know that i can quit and i've never had a craving where its the only thing on my mind and i'm ready to tear someones head off

i was watching c-span the other night and one of the presidential candidates mentioned of how this was implemented and saved the system money

and the way i won is apparently people agree with me, its not that i gave up, but that people agree with me
Posted by brandonallison48 9 years ago
brandonallison48
Ok how is ahundredhighways winning this debate when he gave up? This makes no sense!
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by cameronl35 5 years ago
cameronl35
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by bigbass3000 9 years ago
bigbass3000
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by jessica.spangler 9 years ago
jessica.spangler
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by brandonallison48 9 years ago
brandonallison48
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by SCOTTMILLER66 9 years ago
SCOTTMILLER66
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by JOE76SMITH 9 years ago
JOE76SMITH
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by ahundredhighways 9 years ago
ahundredhighways
ahundredhighwaysphilosopherpirateTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30