The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Goldenpersuader
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

minimum faith needed for salvation is not clear

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/4/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,433 times Debate No: 25442
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

what the absolute minimum needed to believe is not clear. this debate is beyond the "faith v works" debate and is simply in the realm of what faith is required to be saved. i am not saying this in terms of seeking to do or believe the minimum such as to "do as little as i have to to get saved".

i ask christians and they say "believe in jesus". then i point out that the devil does as even the bible says. so they say believe he's your savior. then i point out that some believe that different people see that differently... a good message or atonement etc. a fundamentalist would say a good message is not sufficient. so... you have to believe in atonement is one element. but then there's various beliefs in atonement, "christus victor" v "substitionary" etc.
but then the bible has lots of places where it says what to believe. "confess with your lips that he is lord and believe that he has risen and you will be saved". that doesn't really define what "Lord" is though, thoug h in any case all this atonement stuff may not be necessary after all. but what if they do beleive in atonement and all this other stuff, but dont' know to believe that he was risen? or what if they find that piece of evidence insufficient for belief but believe everything else? most christians just say "believe he's savior and you're good".
and what if you don't like this "savior" stuff given it's a loaded word. what if you just "relied" on Jesus instead, and acknowledged that you're a sinner, wouldn't that be enough? well it's not confesing and beleiving all that stuff, though no one said that was teh end all be all of what's required.
some don't believe he's god... is that okay? a dogamatic would start to list things you must believe. then i point out that that's dogmatic, and most would shy away from that. if it's too short though, they don't like the vagueness or the possibilities they are forgoing for the sake of an easy answer... it's a brutal issue when you get down to it. they want to have their cake... easy answer... and eat it too.. not giving a clear answer.
you have people who are new to the religion and one wouldn think couldn't be held responsible to everything to a T, and you have those who have honest disagreements over what doctrines should be belieeved and what shouldn't. and even if they knew of one doctrine and rejected what tehy knew... what is the minimum they'd have to believe? they can do the "confess with your mouth" stuff and reject say the trinity and be condemned for it? basically everyone is at different stages.
it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk.

so... beyond the whole faith v works debate.. even in terms of faith... what one must believe is not clear or taught very well.
Goldenpersuader

Con

I would just like to say that I am a very strong believer in the bible being a work of fiction created by men ( as its known it was) to control men just like all other religious manuscripts, they are just another simple way like laws to keep people in order, the only problem is religion doesn't stay upto date with the times and gives people a right to punish and extradite non believers.
Now that my religion hating rant is over I will get to my argument. I think it is obvious what you must do to be saved it is stated that you must repent your sins and then there are laws literally written in stone telling you what your sins are and what not to do in future. It's very simple that's what makes it so appealing in a complicated world.
But there are other points to take into consideration like going to church... Oh wait no there aren't because it doesn't once in the bible say you have to, that's just a way for religion to control people and take money from them.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

one of the commenters who commented "gets" the issues here:

"http://andynaselli.com......

we have to hold that at least essential doctrines are required. However none of us can make a comprehensive bold claim that this person is saved bec of his beliefs in this and this doctrine, but the other is not even though he lives the righteous life that Jesus commanded everyone. We can only assume the best and closest doctrine; the judgement is only upto the perfect Lord. The topic of your debate is very difficult to be debated. I believe that even those are saved who have minor misunderstandings and mistakes on the essential doctrines, but live in obedience and love of Christ.

scholars and we all can have certain variance of disagreement on the matter of who and what exactly on need and who exactly are doomed.

this is a valuable article http://www.reasonablefaith.org...;

this is more than just "repent" and you will be saved. that doesn't include believing in Jesus etc. christians everywhere say that nonchristians who repent are not saved... so we have right there the explicit reuirement that you believe in Jesus too. as the commenter said, there's a list of required beliefs but no one is really placed in a way to really know what they are, or even to say what's be essential or what's not essential. for example, believing and repenting might be viewed as enough, but some asy you have to "rely" on Jesus too, which beliving alone does not necessarily accomplish. where is the magic line? there is no magic line.
Goldenpersuader

Con

It is like studying the world of Harry potter as if it was reality but I have done some research and I have found that allot of Christians believe that heaven is only for Christians, so being born on an island somewhere with no knowledge of the bible or Jesus but being a good person would justify hell, I think that shows yet another hole in the religion. After looking into the subject more closely I have found that as far as the the bible is concerned it clearly says that every masikas sindin Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
And then that we are all washed of sin thanks to Jesus in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
So anyone born after Jesus died is clean of this sin.
Now is the only complicated part the exceptions are clearly stated so I will post the only ways to avoid being saved are,
Not knowing the bible, 2nd Thessalonians 1:8, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Being anything the writers of the bible didn't like, Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Or Not being written into the book of life... ?
Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
So as for it being impossible to tell just read the holy manuscripts and try to work out a thousand religious fanatics dribble and you will have a set way to be saved. Which is I think read the bible repent any sins you have and don't be a witch. :) easy
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

con's main point is that he has gone on a tangent about reinforcing the common conception that nonchristians must believe to be saved, which is what i pointed out to begin with.

"So as for it being impossible to tell just read the holy manuscripts and try to work out a thousand religious fanatics dribble and you will have a set way to be saved. Which is I think read the bible repent any sins you have and don't be a witch. :) easy"

why didn't i come to this conclusion earlier. note the sarcasm.
i reiterate all my past arguments, particularly the last post.
Goldenpersuader

Con

as I said before it doesn't matter what Christians think it matters what it says in the bible and i showed you. you cant just pick and choose what you like the sound of it is a book of law and it is fairly clear.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Cow 5 years ago
Cow
Adontimasu is right, theres no grey area of faith, it's purely black and white.
Posted by adontimasu 5 years ago
adontimasu
"Minimum" faith does not exist. One either has faith or they do not.
Posted by ADT_Clone 5 years ago
ADT_Clone
I think your problem with understanding is your assumption that the Bible is actually true.

That's a bad assumption to make, as noone has ever proven the Bible to be true in the slightest sense. So read the Bible with the assumption that you don't know whether the Bible is true or not, and you'll have a lot more success answering your question.
Posted by Jacob_Apologist 5 years ago
Jacob_Apologist
http://andynaselli.com...

we have to hold that at least essential doctrines are required. However none of us can make a comprehensive bold claim that this person is saved bec of his beliefs in this and this doctrine, but the other is not even though he lives the righteous life that Jesus commanded everyone. We can only assume the best and closest doctrine; the judgement is only upto the perfect Lord. The topic of your debate is very difficult to be debated. I believe that even those are saved who have minor misunderstandings and mistakes on the essential doctrines, but live in obedience and love of Christ.

scholars and we all can have certain variance of disagreement on the matter of who and what exactly on need and who exactly are doomed.

this is a valuable article http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
Posted by Juggler37 5 years ago
Juggler37
No contest. If you don't specify a particular sect of Christianity, there's no way it COULD be clear.
No votes have been placed for this debate.