minimum faith needed for salvation is not clear
Debate Rounds (3)
i ask christians and they say "believe in jesus". then i point out that the devil does as even the bible says. so they say believe he's your savior. then i point out that some believe that different people see that differently... a good message or atonement etc. a fundamentalist would say a good message is not sufficient. so... you have to believe in atonement is one element. but then there's various beliefs in atonement, "christus victor" v "substitionary" etc.
but then the bible has lots of places where it says what to believe. "confess with your lips that he is lord and believe that he has risen and you will be saved". that doesn't really define what "Lord" is though, thoug h in any case all this atonement stuff may not be necessary after all. but what if they do beleive in atonement and all this other stuff, but dont' know to believe that he was risen? or what if they find that piece of evidence insufficient for belief but believe everything else? most christians just say "believe he's savior and you're good".
and what if you don't like this "savior" stuff given it's a loaded word. what if you just "relied" on Jesus instead, and acknowledged that you're a sinner, wouldn't that be enough? well it's not confesing and beleiving all that stuff, though no one said that was teh end all be all of what's required.
some don't believe he's god... is that okay? a dogamatic would start to list things you must believe. then i point out that that's dogmatic, and most would shy away from that. if it's too short though, they don't like the vagueness or the possibilities they are forgoing for the sake of an easy answer... it's a brutal issue when you get down to it. they want to have their cake... easy answer... and eat it too.. not giving a clear answer.
you have people who are new to the religion and one wouldn think couldn't be held responsible to everything to a T, and you have those who have honest disagreements over what doctrines should be belieeved and what shouldn't. and even if they knew of one doctrine and rejected what tehy knew... what is the minimum they'd have to believe? they can do the "confess with your mouth" stuff and reject say the trinity and be condemned for it? basically everyone is at different stages.
it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk.
so... beyond the whole faith v works debate.. even in terms of faith... what one must believe is not clear or taught very well.
Now that my religion hating rant is over I will get to my argument. I think it is obvious what you must do to be saved it is stated that you must repent your sins and then there are laws literally written in stone telling you what your sins are and what not to do in future. It's very simple that's what makes it so appealing in a complicated world.
But there are other points to take into consideration like going to church... Oh wait no there aren't because it doesn't once in the bible say you have to, that's just a way for religion to control people and take money from them.
we have to hold that at least essential doctrines are required. However none of us can make a comprehensive bold claim that this person is saved bec of his beliefs in this and this doctrine, but the other is not even though he lives the righteous life that Jesus commanded everyone. We can only assume the best and closest doctrine; the judgement is only upto the perfect Lord. The topic of your debate is very difficult to be debated. I believe that even those are saved who have minor misunderstandings and mistakes on the essential doctrines, but live in obedience and love of Christ.
scholars and we all can have certain variance of disagreement on the matter of who and what exactly on need and who exactly are doomed.
this is a valuable article http://www.reasonablefaith.org...;
this is more than just "repent" and you will be saved. that doesn't include believing in Jesus etc. christians everywhere say that nonchristians who repent are not saved... so we have right there the explicit reuirement that you believe in Jesus too. as the commenter said, there's a list of required beliefs but no one is really placed in a way to really know what they are, or even to say what's be essential or what's not essential. for example, believing and repenting might be viewed as enough, but some asy you have to "rely" on Jesus too, which beliving alone does not necessarily accomplish. where is the magic line? there is no magic line.
And then that we are all washed of sin thanks to Jesus in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
So anyone born after Jesus died is clean of this sin.
Now is the only complicated part the exceptions are clearly stated so I will post the only ways to avoid being saved are,
Not knowing the bible, 2nd Thessalonians 1:8, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Being anything the writers of the bible didn't like, Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Or Not being written into the book of life... ?
Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
So as for it being impossible to tell just read the holy manuscripts and try to work out a thousand religious fanatics dribble and you will have a set way to be saved. Which is I think read the bible repent any sins you have and don't be a witch. :) easy
"So as for it being impossible to tell just read the holy manuscripts and try to work out a thousand religious fanatics dribble and you will have a set way to be saved. Which is I think read the bible repent any sins you have and don't be a witch. :) easy"
why didn't i come to this conclusion earlier. note the sarcasm.
i reiterate all my past arguments, particularly the last post.
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