The Instigator
RonPaulConservative
Pro (for)
The Contender
lannan13
Con (against)

money creation should be abolished

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RonPaulConservative has forfeited round #3.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/22/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 177 times Debate No: 96121
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (0)

 

RonPaulConservative

Pro

The resolution is that the US Goveronment should illegalise the creation of fiat money out of nothing.
lannan13

Con

My opponent has allowed me to set-up the rules for this debate and they shall be provided bellow.

Rules

1. No forfeits
2. Citations should be provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final speeches
4. Observe good sportsmanship and act civilly/decorously in the debate
5. No trolling
6. No "kritiks" of the topic (challenging assumptions in the resolution)
7. My opponent accepts all definitions and waives his/her right to add resolutional definitions
8. The BOP is on Pro.
9. Follow the structure of the debate properly
11. Rebuttals of new points raised in an adversary's immediately preceding speech may be permissible at the judges' discretion even in the final round (debaters may debate such rebuttals' appropriateness)
12. Violation of any of these rules, or of any of the R1 set-up, merits a loss

Structure

R1. Con terms and definition;
R2. Pro's Case/arguments; Con generic Case/arguments
R3. Pro generic Rebuttal of Con's case; Con generic Rebuttal of Pro's case
R4. Pro defense; Con defense.

Should- used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency (http://www.merriam-webster.com...)

Abolished- to officially end or stop (something, such as a law) : to completely do away with (something) (http://www.merriam-webster.com...)
Debate Round No. 1
RonPaulConservative

Pro

The resolution is basically that counterfeiting, by a central bank, commercial bank, or otherwise, should be illegal. Now most people kind of already thought that counterfeiting is illegal, but unfortunately the Fed is allowed to print free money all they want, Commercial banks are allowed to loan out money they don't have, and Credit Card companies simply create fictional money out of nothing and charge 12-18% intrest on it.
The resolution, in the context of our current economic system, is that fractional reserve lending should be abolished.

MORALITY
It is blatant usery to charge any ammount of intrest on money that you don't have, or that you created out of nothing. The intrest rate on this "money" isn't 12% or even 18%, it is infinity. It's like if I gave my opponent a fictional house and expected him to pay me rent on that house that doesn't exist in real non-fictional money.

TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION
The creation of mone out of nothing diludes the value of our money through inflation, which is a tax. The really nasty part is that this tax is imposed on us by the Federal Reserve and the Commercial Banks, nd the 7 goveronors of the Fed are not elected, nither are the CEO's of these banks! This means that inflation is not only taxation, it's actually taxation without representation.

SPECULATIVE PRACTICES
Creating free money out of nothing not only increases the price of goods, it also causes people to do stupid things and to make unsound investents. A classis example of this is the Great Depression, when the Fed created a surplus of currency and lent it out to people at rock bottom intrest rates. This created a bubble which popped, sending us into a depression.
The housing bubble is another example of this- the banks began making exorbinate loans to just anyone who wanted to buy a house, this inflated the money and created a bubble, which popped,and sent us int a depression.
lannan13

Con

For this debate I shall be debating on the aspect of fiat which is the topic outlined by my opponent in R1 by him. My opponent then moved on to talking about the Fed, so I'm going to attempt to argue along the resolution he has established.

Contention 1: Monetary Policy

Monetary policy is quite key in many things as in 2008 during the subprime crisis, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke created a stimulus that far surpassed that of the Federal Government's TARP, which I'll get into TARP later on. Bernanke saw the issue in the economy needed a huge fix and it was obvious that he needed to supply credit, not liquidity [1]. The Monetary policy had many types of stimulus, but none more effective, by far, than the Quantitative Easing (QE from this point forward).

During QE1, the Federal Reserve purchased US treasury bonds that were mortgaged based bringing totals up to nearly $2 trillion [2]. This was important as the Federal Reserve had no choice, but to buy these toxic assets as many banks began to go under. Much of these toxic assets were grouped together in CDS, which these toxic assets and bad mortgages were packaged and sold off to other banks as well as other companies. When Lehman Brothers went under, the Fed jumped in and began to start buying these toxic assets. Many of these came from Freddie and Fannie Mae's Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS). In QE3, the Federal Reserve has increased purchasing MBS and GSE (Government Sponsored Enterprises) debt increased to $85 billion per month and this would continue until the markets recovered. To this point, the Federal Reserve's total holding are at $4.4 trillion by the end of 2014 [3]. US unemployment has fallen from 10% to now around 5% by the end of 2014 [4]. Unlike many critics speculation, QE did not lead to the hyperinflation that many had feared as the US economy began to recover. In the purchasing of the toxic assets and public debt, it infused credit into the markets leading to an increase in AD which is the number 1 driver of the economy as nearly everything and all paths to recovery revolves around the AD and as the public spending increases, it sends signals to the consumers that the economy is beginning to recover and they can feel safe to begin continuation of consumer spending and making investments. This has helped pave the pathway to recovery that Free Market policy wouldn't be able to even come close to such a safe recovery as we would have likely have been plunged into another Great Depression as world markets were all beginning to fail.

Contention 2: Controlling Inflation

One of the key issues behind inflation is the amount of harm it can do when we look at the effects it has on the average American. It tends to harm the middle class the most as inflation requires debtors and banks to raise their interest rates and you see prices increase substantially. This impact increases more of a harm as we tend to see sticky wages where even if prices go up, wages stay the same. This means the consumer is able to afford less and less [5]. We see less and less investment in the stock market and businesses which means less and less jobs. If we do not combat inflation we will see high unemployment rates and slowed economic growth. What does this has to do with the Federal Reserve you may ask. The Federal Reserve is the government’s only and best tool to control inflation by the raising of interest rates. By increasing interest rates, they purchase currency on the market meaning that there is less and less money on the market causing more and more people to save. This causes deflation and prevents inflation from becoming out of control as this was the task since post-Johnson and Nixon era where they were tasked with this in order to defeat the mounting 16% inflation rate at the time [6].


Many "End the Feders" seems to think that there was no inflation before the fed, but this is hilariously wrong. We can see that the highest points of inflation were in the mid 1780’s at 30%, early 1802’s at 20%, and 1863-1864 at 25% [7] . With the Fed not tasked with controlling inflation until the Nixon era, we can see this has caused a massive decrease in inflation ever since compared to post inflation. The "End the Feders" also ridiculous to think that today’s inflation is 15% and unemployment at 9%. The actual numbers are inflation is at 1% and unemployment is 4.9% [6].

Sources

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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RonPaulConservative 4 weeks ago
RonPaulConservative
Can we restart this one and copy paste our arguments?
Posted by lannan13 1 month ago
lannan13
I don't know why the numbers didn't copy.
Posted by RonPaulConservative 1 month ago
RonPaulConservative
Do-
Posted by lannan13 1 month ago
lannan13
Shall I post reasonable rules and definitions?
Posted by RonPaulConservative 1 month ago
RonPaulConservative
I am saying that there should be a limited supply whether it is redeemable for gold or silver is separate issue.
Posted by lannan13 1 month ago
lannan13
Then you are arguing against fiat since you are advocating for it to be backed from something.
Posted by RonPaulConservative 1 month ago
RonPaulConservative
The creation of currency from nothing should be ablished- any questions?
Posted by lannan13 1 month ago
lannan13
You are very vague on this issue.
Posted by RonPaulConservative 1 month ago
RonPaulConservative
The mint owns the printing press, it isn't legal tender unless the Fed loans it into existence, it's irrelevant anyway, the title of the debate is money creation, not money creation by Fed!
Posted by lannan13 1 month ago
lannan13
The Mint prints the money, not the Fed.
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