The Instigator
bradshaw93
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
wjmelements
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

morality is not possible without god's help.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
wjmelements
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/7/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,022 times Debate No: 15225
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

bradshaw93

Pro

I will argue that morality is not possible without god's help.
wjmelements

Con

I leave my opponent the right to set the definition of morality, within reason, during his second round. As morality is presently undefined and my opponent has the burden of proof, I will let him present his argument first.

Debate Round No. 1
bradshaw93

Pro

bradshaw93 forfeited this round.
wjmelements

Con

I will allow my opponent the last round to make his case. He must define morality and prove its impossiblity without the assistance of God.
Debate Round No. 2
bradshaw93

Pro

Morality is what is right and wrong. Who tells us what is right and wrong? GOd. Read the Ten Commandments. And God made us so it is of course up to him to decide what is right or wrong.
wjmelements

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate.

==Refutation==
My opponent's argument is invalid because:
1. Obligation to direct morality doesn't dictate actual events.
Although one may think that the Creator God would create man with knowlege of what the guidelines of eternal judgment would be, this was not the case. Man was left without any knowlege of right or wrong [1] until the hand of Satan blessed him [2].
2. The Ten Commandments are not the sole source of morality.
Because morality is a system determining right and wrong, it is not limited to the Ten Commandments. A humanist, for example, may use the Humanist Manifesto [3] or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a system of determining right and wrong. Both qualify as morality under my opponent's definition, and both disregard God.
==Points of Negation==
1. The God of the Bible doesn't exist.
My opponent defines the god of the resolution to be the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible cannot exist, because he would both be motivated and capable of eliminating needless suffering and natural disasters; however, they exist, so He does not.
The God of the Bible also cannot exist because an all-loving God would not punish portions of humanity for eternity for following biological pressures He Himself designed. He wouldn't design an evil temptor, knowing in His omniscience that it would lead to the destruction of mankind, and unleash it upon existence. He wouldn't design a functioning trap, the Earth, and toss all humanity into it to justify His own damnation. A hunter can not blame the dear for being dinner when he himself set up the trap.
The God of the Bible cannot exist because his conditions imply a world that isn't.

2. Even if the God of the Bible existed, morality didn't come from Him.
According to the Bible, man became aware of right and wrong in spite of God:

Genesis 2:15-17:
The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” [1]
Genesis 3:4-6:
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [2]

According to the Bible, morality was impossible without Satan. Without Satan, humans would never have acquired morality. This contradicts the resolution.
==Conclusion==
Either the Bible is true or not, but either way, he isn't the reason for morality.
==Sources==
[1] http://www.biblegateway.com...
[2] http://www.biblegateway.com...
[3] http://www.americanhumanist.org...
[4] http://www.un.org...
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by bradshaw93 3 years ago
bradshaw93
okay
Posted by wjmelements 3 years ago
wjmelements
Preferably between 2 weeks and 1 year.
Posted by bradshaw93 3 years ago
bradshaw93
fix to what?
Posted by bradshaw93 3 years ago
bradshaw93
you got it
Posted by wjmelements 3 years ago
wjmelements
"The voting period will last indefinitely."

Fix and I'll accept.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
bradshaw93wjmelementsTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: wow.
Vote Placed by Zealous1 3 years ago
Zealous1
bradshaw93wjmelementsTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.
Vote Placed by BlackVoid 3 years ago
BlackVoid
bradshaw93wjmelementsTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Obvious