The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
noxdoloris
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

more guns means more overall homicide

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/9/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 248 times Debate No: 82323
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

noxdoloris

Con

http://www.washingtontimes.com...
After passing concealed carry law, Florida"s homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below.
In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed.
States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.

http://www.theblaze.com...

http://crimeresearch.org...

http://www.theacru.org...

I would also like to point out that some of your sources use data obtained based off of fire arm related crimes rather than crimes a a whole while crimes committed with a firearm may decrease because there are decreased firearms available the crimes and suicides could still being committed just without a gun and this debate was to argue whether or not more guns means more overall homicide not just firearm homicide
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the debate is about more guns means more homicides or not. not about what concealed carry laws do or dont do. they might just make more guns less bad, but the bottom line is more guns means more bad, more murder. concealed carry might make so many guns less bad, i dont know. i do know ninety percent of gun researchers think more gun control is better than none when it comes to homicides. i dont know the magic gun control if we have lot of guns. but the point isnt about this or that gun control, it's about more guns mean more homicides or not.
noxdoloris

Con

https://www.gunowners.org...

Concealed carry laws do not make guns less bad as guns are not bad to begin with. Concealed carry laws only make guns better.

It can be agreed that the majority of citizens are good law abiding people who do not wish to cause harm to others.
Concealed carry laws only insure that it is only the good citizens who get access to the guns.
However as the number of law abiding citizens surpasses that of the criminals allowing free access would still be a good course of action.
Criminals are less likely to attack if they knew everyone was armed and when they do decide to attack the gun of the citizens can be used in defense.
This means that more guns equals both lower crime attempts and a lower amount of crimes being successfully carried out.
While a gun may make it easier to commit a homicide a homicide will not occur without the people wanting to commit a homicide. Most people you meet would not want to commit a homicide sometimes even in face of danger.
This means that while it would be easier for people to commit homicide the rates should not increase
People who do wish to kill are firstly less likely to worry about consequences for breaking gun control law than murder and will not have a problem obtaining guns illegally
Even if they were not able to obtain a gun illegally if they wanted to kill someone they likely would do so anyway just with a different method
In spur of the moment decisions where one will commit homicide it is likely that even without a gun it will be committed using another method.
This would mean that removing guns should not decrease homicides.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

"Concealed carry laws do not make guns less bad as guns are not bad to begin with. Concealed carry laws only make guns better."

the evidence i cite says more guns, more homicides. that means those laws at best can make the bad presence of guns not so bad. guns are causative, so they are not good to begin with.

"Concealed carry laws only insure that it is only the good citizens who get access to the guns."

the laws might deter criminals, but it doesn't ensure only good people get guns.

"Even if they were not able to obtain a gun illegally if they wanted to kill someone they likely would do so anyway just with a different method"

the evidence i cited shows that overall homicides go up with more guns. that means people aren't just killing with different weopons otherwise the rates would be the same.
noxdoloris

Con

the evidence I cite says more guns, more homicides. that means those laws at best can make the bad presence of guns not so bad. guns are causative, so they are not good to begin with. "
The evidence you cite says more guns more firearm homicides. The evidence I sight says more guns less total homicides.
This can occur when people who would commit homicide have access to a gun and decide to use that as their method rather than another method as it is easier however without the gun they still would have killed. This means that guns are good as they decrease the homicide rate.

"the laws might deter criminals, but it doesn't ensure only good people get guns." You are correct I should have worded that differently. What I meant by that is that concealed carry laws ensure it is only good citizens who can legally get access to and carry concealed guns.

"the evidence I cited shows that overall homicides go up with more guns. that means people aren't just killing with different weapons otherwise the rates would be the same."
As I've stated earlier the evidence you cited shows that firearm homicide goes up with more guns not overall homicide The following re quotes from your sources
" that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide."
" there was a significant positive correlation between guns per capita per country and the rate of firearm-related deaths"
" the more guns there are any in any one place, the higher the percentage of people who commit suicide with guns as opposed to other mechanisms will be."
""for each 1 percentage point increase in proportion of household gun ownership," Siegel et al. found, "firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9" percent. "

The following are quotes from my sources

First I would also like to point out that concealed carry law is relevant because passing concealed carry laws increase the amount of guns and allow people to carry their guns with them as most people would not want their gun just out in the open as it would look suspicious and possibly scare people.

now onto the quotes:
"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center."
"Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker."
"States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; and If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly."
"In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state. FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average."
"In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole." While this does not pertain to homicide directly it shows that people are less likely to commit a crime such as homicide when citizens are armed.
"In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful."
While this does not pertain to homicide directly it shows people are less likely to successfully carry out a crime such as homicide against an armed person.
"On July 9, 2013, a bill to recognize Illinois gun owners" right to carry concealed firearms was passed by both chambers of the state Legislature. There were 6 fewer murders than the same time frame in 2013 " a 9 percent drop " and 55 fewer murders than 2012, police said."
"Every place that has been banned guns has seen murder rates go up. You cannot point to one place where murder rates have fallen, whether it"s Chicago or D.C. or even island nations such as England, Jamaica, or Ireland."
""Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases."
"The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun " a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite " but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain: Per capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent."
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
No votes have been placed for this debate.