The Instigator
lord_megatron
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
42lifeuniverseverything
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

newbies need a debate.org tutorial

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
42lifeuniverseverything
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/30/2016 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 407 times Debate No: 92085
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (1)

 

lord_megatron

Pro

Cause whenever I want to have a serious debate a newbie comes in takes my side of the debate and therefore ends up conceding. At least a small tutorial debate with a bot.
42lifeuniverseverything

Con

I accept this debate and I am glad my opponent hopefully wants to bring clarity to the universe one debate at a time.

Now let me address your argument. I first of all can see where you come from having done about 15 debates on this site. But I disagree with you. Some reasons why.

1. The Great Conversation dictates that everyone is able to participate in it.

Plato theorized that one of the most important things that humanity could engage in was the great conversation on the meaning of existence itself and the exploration through logical thought of our meaning for existing. This discourse of ideas, is obviously what this site, debate.org, stands for. Now one thing that is important to understand is that anyone can participate in this discourse, because the only requirement is to have a knowledge of what it means to be human. Obviously, humans are the best source for that. It doesn't matter if they are broken humans or whole ones, they still can participate and bring insightful meaning to this conversation.

The impact of this argument is that whatever newbies say on serious debates, you should take seriously because they are trying their hardest to provide significant meaning to the Great Conversation. So stop being patronising towards the new people on the site and acting like their opinions aren't worth anything.

2. You are seeing this the wrong way.

Instead of making them debate a bot, I propose they view 10 debates before they can create their own debate. That way they can get an idea for how the serious people on this site operate. A bot will not show them how to be unique on this site, but watching some debates will.

3. If you want a serious debate with a serious debater challenge a specific person.

Why not create a forum topic where you ask for many people to suggest serious topics they will debate you on, then you send them the challenges? That completely eliminates any trolls and/or newbies from taking the debate. I feel like this is a fail in foresight on your part, not on the people who accept your open challenges.

If you ask for an open challenge, prepare to have it hijacked is all I am saying. But if you make your challenges confined to a rank/criteria, or you make the challenge specific to one user, you get around the problem.

4. If nothing else, help educate the newbie you are debating on how the site works.

It seems to me like this is a complaint that you have with the people on the site, and not the site itself. If that is the case, why can't you create a quick "read me" tutorial in Microsoft Word then grab that and paste it into an argument with a newbie so that they understand how to debate correctly? Why haven't you done that? If you do that, you save yourself a lot of hassle.

5. Finally, you and I both know Juggle is not going to do it.

This is self-explanatory. You have to put in the work, because from all I hear being a relative newcomer, Juggle abandoned the site long ago. So really, just stop complaining and come up with a creative solution.

With these points I await my opponent's response.
Debate Round No. 1
lord_megatron

Pro

1. The Great Conversation dictates that everyone is able to participate in it.
Can't you do a small tutorial with flashing signs that show you how to start and do a debate? What's the hurry?
2. You are seeing this the wrong way.
Okay, a tutorial with flashing signs that shows pro/con, how to start a debate, notifications, and voting. That is simple enough, consumes less time and will make sure no debate is wasted.
3. If you want a serious debate with a serious debater challenge a specific person.
Well, all debates need to be serious and have at least some meaningful arguments. I don't want the opponent taking the wrong side and the debate being wasted. With a tutorial, number of wasted debates would decline.
4. If nothing else, help educate the newbie you are debating on how the site works.
Yeah right, I have no other work to do at all. I am free for educating the world how to use such a simple site. Yes, paste the rules in all of my debates, why not.
5. Finally, you and I both know Juggle is not going to do it.
Still, it is needed.
42lifeuniverseverything

Con

If you want to be super concise, then I will be also.

1. The hurry is that we don't know how long people will stay interested in the site. Get them while we still have their attention.

2. You completely ignored my idea and gave no reason your idea was better. Honestly reading 5-10 full debates is just as time consuming as a tutorial.

3. Some people need acclimation to new surroundings and you want everyone to be perfect after one debate. I fail to see how you plan to accomplish such a powerful tutorial that people automatically know higher logic after taking it. Seriously. Instead just challenge serious people and stop debating newbies. Your fault for not taking the initiative.

4. Wow, sorry to find out you want to put the minimum effort in. I'm tying this in with the final point. If Juggle will not put this tutorial in, then the only remaining option is to teach newbies indvidually. If you want to hide behind other people's work to build a tutorial that has no guarantee of working, then you should be the one to suffer for your own laziness. If you really care about the issue, do something about it, don't appeal to Juggle to fix it for you because they won't.


I want to say this to the voters. This debate has become an attempt to make Juggle recognize a need on this site, and not really a debate about the merits of a tutorial (Like the resolution required). My opponent has proved that through his responses he just gave. Because the debate is deviating from the resolution because of Pro's arguments I strongly urge you to VOTE CON.
Debate Round No. 2
lord_megatron

Pro

1. The hurry is that we don't know how long people will stay interested in the site. Get them while we still have their attention.
Yeah, reading 5 to 10 debates take only 10 seconds, no sweat.
2. You completely ignored my idea and gave no reason your idea was better. Honestly reading 5-10 full debates is just as time consuming as a tutorial.
My idea is the arrows show the pro/con buttons, help the newbie start a debate and shows the notifications tab. Voting won't be possible as it require verification.
3. Some people need acclimation to new surroundings and you want everyone to be perfect after one debate. I fail to see how you plan to accomplish such a powerful tutorial that people automatically know higher logic after taking it. Seriously. Instead just challenge serious people and stop debating newbies. Your fault for not taking the initiative.
Even with the tutorial or reading debates you can't attain higher logic. What the tutorial can show is that you at least take the right side for arguing, therefore making debates more efficient. And knowing the pointers for starting a debate.

4. Wow, sorry to find out you want to put the minimum effort in. I'm tying this in with the final point. If Juggle will not put this tutorial in, then the only remaining option is to teach newbies individually. If you want to hide behind other people's work to build a tutorial that has no guarantee of working, then you should be the one to suffer for your own laziness. If you really care about the issue, do something about it, don't appeal to Juggle to fix it for you because they won't.

This debate is about whether we need a tutorial or not, not whether Juggle will make a tutorial or not. Con doesn't seem to get that.
"This debate has become an attempt to make Juggle recognize a need on this site, and not really a debate about the merits of a tutorial"
This debate is about the reasons why there should have been a tutorial on this site. Who cares about Juggle? Con is deviating by using Juggle to justify his argument.
Overall, vote for pro.
42lifeuniverseverything

Con

I first want to address the closing argument of my opponent. "This debate is about whether we need a tutorial or not, not whether Juggle will make a tutorial or not. Con doesn't seem to get that." I agree that the debate is on the need for a tutorial but unfortunately what Pro did was morph the debate into a different one. I have reasoning for this. Pro kept saying repeatedly that a tutorial was better because Pro was essentially not wishing to put in the work by either educating site users, or seeking out experts to debate with. Because Pro kept asserting these as his reasons for the tutorial, that was his "need" for the tutorial. But that need reflects a wish to have Juggle deal with issues on the site. That is the core wish behind that line of argument. While a tutorial has a small chance of making things better, Juggle still will not implement it.

Now for the points.

1. "Yeah, reading 5 to 10 debates take only 10 seconds, no sweat."

But what conceivable tutorial for this site actually can be done in 10 seconds? Also why the arbitrary number? Honestly 5 debates should not take that long to read. It also is way less taxing then trying to debate a bot.

2. "My idea is the arrows show the pro/con buttons, help the newbie start a debate and shows the notifications tab. Voting won't be possible as it require verification."

I request a vote on this alone. My opponent cannot suddenly fully clarify his plan in the final round. That violates conduct because I as Con did not have adequate time to fully debate this plan with Pro because of the final round reveal. Despite that, there are still flaws with this plan. How will these arrows work spatially on the site? Why are you forcing them into a debate if they wanted to just look around when they made the profile? Who does not understand a notification tab? And honestly, I wasn't thinking they would get voting rights.

What my opponent has done should lose him conduct. Also, his plan is not fully clarified/faulty and would have issues with new site users from day one of implementation.

3. "Even with the tutorial or reading debates you can't attain higher logic. What the tutorial can show is that you at least take the right side for arguing, therefore making debates more efficient. And knowing the pointers for starting a debate."

Ok I have another issue. This one might be slightly hypocritical since I have zero sources this debate. But as Pro you have a burden of proof, so where are your examples of people who have taken the wrong side on a debate? Where are the links to your personal experience debates where this happened? Without those links, this point should flow to me, because we have no proof that a tutorial can actually make them pick the right side. So if a tutorial cannot do that based on the current lack of examples, then how is a tutorial better than watching a certain number of debates? It isn't is the answer.

4. "This debate is about the reasons why there should have been a tutorial on this site. Who cares about Juggle? Con is deviating by using Juggle to justify his argument."

The Juggle argument was justified, and if you don't think so, that's fine. I was using Juggle to prove the point that you are debating a hypothetical tutorial that will never be implemented in reality. The reason you should lose for this is two fold. A) you have the burden of proof to justify to the voters that such a tutorial can exist. B) The reason you have to prove existence is because the resolution does not say "newbies should have a DDO tutorial" instead it says "newbies need a debate.org tutorial". The word need implies that it must exist. So obviously since you cannot prove this, you fail to uphold the resolution and should lose for it.


At the end of this debate, refer to all our arguments and vote CON because Pro failed to uphold the resolution, his BOP, and how the Status Quo is worse than his plan.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar 7 months ago
Ragnar
Mega, do you really want this reputation?

If you want to start winning more debates, rather than reporting every vote against you (which removes the weight of your reports when you need to make a meaningful one), ask the voters in question what you could have done better then use that.
Posted by lord_megatron 7 months ago
lord_megatron
If we start having some decent vote moderators this tactic would be invalid
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 7 months ago
42lifeuniverseverything
Thank you Ragnar for sticking up for me in this.
Posted by Ragnar 7 months ago
Ragnar
Oddly, this is not the most immature tactic like this I've seen. There's people here who (at least in the past) would try to create as much drama as possible if anyone voted against them, laying on insults in the comment section, sending weird PMs, etc.. This is mild by comparison, however please knock it off unless you see some reason a vote might actually be deleted.
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 7 months ago
42lifeuniverseverything
I guess so haha. Well I can't make you change but I can change how I debate you.
Posted by lord_megatron 7 months ago
lord_megatron
Anything for winning, after all I am a Decepticon ain't I?
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 7 months ago
42lifeuniverseverything
Yeah well I know now that you are cheap with the vote moderators. I'll keep that in mind. Try to only report worthy votes in the future m8.

42
Posted by lord_megatron 7 months ago
lord_megatron
Muahahhahah Just showing how the vote moderation can save me, although some voter turned up after all
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 8 months ago
42lifeuniverseverything
lord megatron stop trying to win the debate by reporting every vote not in your favor. So underhanded.
Posted by whiteflame 8 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Udel/ Mod action: NOT Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Pro says noobs need a tutorial because they aren't that great at knowing how to debate. Con says we shouldn't waste time creating a tutorial when we don't know if the noobs will use it or stick around. Con says people can read debates and learn how to debate. Pro says people might want to get acclomated with the site and reading a tutorial is quicker. I agree with Con that it's abusive for Pro to bring up a new argument in the final round, but I disagree with Con that Juggle's likelihood of actually putting in a tutorial is relevant to the debate. What loses Pro the debate in my opinion is the word NEED in the resolution, though Con did not exploit that enough. Pro's only comments for expressing this need are his own preferences and frustration. He didn't explain how the noobs or site would be much better off with the tutorial.

[*Reason for non-removal*] The voter clearly explains the decision with arguments given the debate.
***********************************************************************
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Udel 8 months ago
Udel
lord_megatron42lifeuniverseverythingTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro says noobs need a tutorial because they aren't that great at knowing how to debate. Con says we shouldn't waste time creating a tutorial when we don't know if the noobs will use it or stick around. Con says people can read debates and learn how to debate. Pro says people might want to get acclomated with the site and reading a tutorial is quicker. I agree with Con that it's abusive for Pro to bring up a new argument in the final round, but I disagree with Con that Juggle's likelihood of actually putting in a tutorial is relevant to the debate. What loses Pro the debate in my opinion is the word NEED in the resolution, though Con did not exploit that enough. Pro's only comments for expressing this need are his own preferences and frustration. He didn't explain how the noobs or site would be much better off with the tutorial.