The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
rnsweetheart
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

no clear positive proof for papal claims, but negative evidence to the contrary

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/5/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,656 times Debate No: 3088
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (12)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

no clear evidence
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i came to the primacy realization slowly on my own, but there are in fact lots of materials on the subject. look to the orthodox if nothing else.

here's some interesting books off hand for someone interested in that subject.

You Are Peter: An Orthodox Reflection on the Exercise of Papal Primacy
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org...
Papacy and development : Newman and the primacy of the Pope
Papal Primacy: From Its Origins to the Present

http://www.catholic.com...

if you look at all the early church writings, even the ones from clement, and read them in the spirit of a unifying church, not necessarily in any way infallible, you'll see a different way to interpret history. ie just a unifying and persuasive authority.

the only possibly convincing quotes are from firmilian and cyprian. firmilian was not a believer, but in fact a non-believer in the autority of rome. cyprian... there's the cyprianic theory that said that the church was suppose to be one, but that doesn't necessarily imply what catholics say it does. i do know cardinal newman talks about the cyprianic theory briefly in that sense before he became catholic. see the next set of quotes for the context.*

Newman said the alternative unifying thory is a formidable belief. he said the chruch grew like an acorn tree. whether it grew through God's power into what it is now, or by man's power, he said early history could be interpreted either way. the reason he was saying this is because people were dissing the chuch because the early text is so ambiguos, and he wanted them to realize the organic nature of the church: even if it were true, it's not gonna just spring up; if you were Peter, you wouldn't just say hey i'm infallible, watch out; it's be more natural (if it were true, i'm sure he had a time coming to grips with what it was... and i'm not even sure, even if the chruch is true,, whether he would have to even know (or did know) the extent of his power) Newman was resistant of hte first vaitcan council to vote yea on infallibilty because of ehse historical difficulties, as he put it, even though he himself believed in it. he was afraid of how outsiders would take the catholic church.

when i look at the question of whether hte orthodox broke away or who did. i see it exemplified by the pope steven (or was it victor?) controversy where the guy said said to the pope who excommunicated his people "in excommunicating us from you, you've excommunicated yourself from all". again, it goes back to how you take the pope's assertion to excommunicate. (remember too that many of the bishops back then were called "pope") it's all a matter of perspective.

lastly, not only could the dissenters at vatican I dissent, the orthodox can remain separate precisely because this ambiguity. it's not that they aren't aware of the quotes you provide from catholic.com.....

*Here's Victor and Stephen info, two most notable events early on...
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Though Victor tried to change the stance of the churches of Asia Minor, and though he threatened to break fellowship with them if they didn't change their stance, they ignored his threats. The church father and church historian Eusebius, in his church history (5:24), records part of a letter written to Victor by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus. Polycrates explains that he and other church leaders will maintain their stance on the celebration of Easter, and that they aren't intimidated by Victor's threats:
"I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said ‘we ought to obey God rather than man.' "

As to Stephen and the rebaptism controvery with Firmilian and Cyprian:
I (Firmilian) am justly indignant at this so open and manifest folly of Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid, should introduce many other rocks and establish new buildings of many churches; maintaining that there is baptism in them by his authority (Epistle 74.17).
How great sin have you (Stephen) heaped up for yourself, when you cut yourself off from so many flocks! For it is yourself that you have cut off. Do not deceive yourself, since he is really the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity. For while you think that all may be excommunicated by you, you have excommunicated yourself alone from all (Epistle 74.24).
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negative proof, possible contradiction.
the way to disprove the CC is to find a contradiction. you'd think after 2000 or so years, you'd find such a contradiction. here is a possible one. i do note, that it's only possible, and not definitive. but, it's at least on its face a contradiction. my primary beef with the CC is the "no salvation outside the CC" doctrine, possible contradiction.

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There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council).

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino).

Now, you see a new paradigm:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14).

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).
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am willing to discuss feeney, hays if anyone knowledgable.
and discoverers of the new world, and anything talked about here:
http://www.amazon.com...
rnsweetheart

Con

I don't know anything about this, so I am not going to debate it. I only am asking a vote from the debate community to vote for me to get this resolution off the challenge zone.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
rnsweetheart

Con

rnsweetheart forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
rnsweetheart

Con

rnsweetheart forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by anikiforouk 8 years ago
anikiforouk
why did you waste the challenge, maybe some one else would have wanted to debate that, i m voting pro
Posted by matthewleebrown14 8 years ago
matthewleebrown14
pope gregory also has strong quotes about the primacy of rome....the looked at himself as equal to the other bishops.....
Posted by matthewleebrown14 8 years ago
matthewleebrown14
dairgirl, i'm an eastern orthodox christian and i had a similar debate with someone on the primacy of rome, in which i'm currently winning....
Posted by Agent_D 8 years ago
Agent_D
Im a catholic, maybe i could defend my belief on you. but first tell me the main core of your questions and i will accept your challenge.
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