The Instigator
shneeba
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
emj32
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

olajuwan is the greastes center of all time

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
emj32
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/9/2012 Category: Sports
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,164 times Debate No: 28006
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

shneeba

Pro

Olajuwan is the most talented offensive and defensive center ever. from Lagos, Nigeria Olajuwan dominated from the moment he stepped on an NBA floor. As a rookie he turned the Rockets from a 29-53 joke to a 48-win playoff team,
Six times an All-NBA first-teamer, Olajuwon was also a fixture on the NBA All-Defensive team.

The man known as "The Dream" won two Defensive Player of the Year awards. He came in second in the MVP voting in the 1992-93 , and won the award in 1994.

Averaging over 20 points and 10 rebounds in each of his first 12 seasons in the league, Hakeem's numbers are out of this world. As the NBA's all-time leading shot-blocker and eighth on the career steals list (by far the highest for a center), "The Dream" is the greatest defensive center ever.
emj32

Con

I thank my opponent for instigating this debate. I will be arguing Kareem-Abdul Jabbar is the greatest NBA center of all-time, surpassing Hakeem Olajuwon. I will construct my argument with three separate sections.


CAREER STATISTICS


-Over the course of both their careers, Kareem has put up statistics paralleled by none.

Points:
Kareem - 38387
Hakeem- 26946
Rebouds:
Kareem-17440
Hakeem-13748
Assists:
Kareem-5660
Hakeem-3058
Blocks:
Kareem-3189
Hakeem-3830

*Note the NBA did not recognize blocks until the 1973-4 season. Therefore, any blocks recorded by Kareem during that time have not been documented. If his blocks had been recorded during this time, he would of likely surpassed Hakeem's totals.

FT/FT%:
Kareem-6712(.721)
Hakeem-5423(.712)
FG/FG%:
Kareem-15847(.559)
Hakeem-10749(.512)

As shown above, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has shown he has played at a superior level over the course of his career than Hakeem Olajuwon.

Abdul-Jabbar statistics: http://www.basketball-reference.com...
Hakeem Olajuwon statistics: http://www.basketball-reference.com...


CAREER ACCOMPLISHMENTS

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has also proven to be more accomplished than Hakkem Olajuwon by accumulating career milestones and awards that far supass Olajuwon's.

MVP awards:
Kareem-6
Hakeem-1
NBA championships:
Kareem-6
Hakeem-2
NBA Finals MVP:
Kareem-2
Hakeem-2
All-Star:
Kareem-19
Hakeem-10
All-NBA team apperances:
Kareem-15
Hakeem-12
All-Defensive team apperances:
Kareem-11
Hakeem-9

I think that is enough to show Kareem is a greater historical center than Hakeem Olajuwon. I will now await my opponent's argument.

Kareem's accomplishments: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Hakeem's accomplishments:http://en.wikipedia.org...


Debate Round No. 1
shneeba

Pro

I was hoping my oppenent wouldnt choose Kareem because he is the most annoying to debate against, but i still firmly stand on that Hakeem is the greastest center of all time.

Keep in mind that kareem also played over 300 more games in a 3 year longer carrer so these total career show his durability in the NBA, not necessarily how he is better. Instead lets look at per 36 minitues statistics and how they both impacted the game. Im doing per 36 min because kareem averaged a little over 2 min per game than olajuwan

Points
Olajuwan-22
Kareem- 24


Blocks
Olajuwan- 3.1 (leading shot blocker of all time)
Kareem- 2.6


Steals (an important statistic you seem to forgot)
Olajuwan-1.8 (Most steals by any center by alot. also 8th all time on the steals list)
Kareem-.9

Rebounds
Olajuwan-11.2
Kareem-10.9


Now also dont forget the great playoff runs olajuwan put together against some of the greatest big men to play like robinson, ewing, mutombo, and even consider malone. The clutch playoff numbers olajuwan put up are even more impressive than the statistics from before.

Playoff points per game
Olajuwan-25.9
Kareem-24.3

Blocks per game
Olajuwan-3.3
Kareem-2.4

Steals per game
Olajuwan-1.7
Kareem-1

Rebounds per game
Olajuwan-11.2
Kareem-10.5

There is not much more to be said than Kareem being better than Olajuwan other than scoring
Olajuwan made one the worst teams in the NBA into a champoinship team with very little help from his team. Olajuwan is the only player to win 2 champoinships while being the only all star on the team. Kareem didnt just have one all star in James Worthy but he also had Magic Johnson as well (the best point guard to ever play) Thank you for accepting the debate its a good topic and i look foward for your response

emj32

Con

I thank my opponent for continuing this interesting debate. I will admit I hold Hakeem in high regard, and I personally rank him 2nd on my all-time list. However, I believe Kareem beats him out as the best center of all time. I will continue to build my case.

"Keep in mind that Kareem also played over 300 more games in a 3 year longer career so these total career show his durability in the NBA, not necessarily how he is better. Instead lets look at per 36 minutes statistics and how they both impacted the game. I'm doing per 36 min because Kareem averaged a little over 2 min per game than olajuwan"

Longevity is a very important factor into calculating a player's importance to a team. One of the reasons Kareem was so skilled was because he continued to play at a high level for 20 years. I extend my statistics from last round, as I find it more efficient to compare a player's statistics from his entire career, rather than at a per 36 minute system. Why should we punish Kareem for keeping his body in shape to play more minutes per game and playing more seasons.

"Now also dont forget the great playoff runs olajuwan put together against some of the greatest big men to play like robinson, ewing, mutombo, and even consider malone. The clutch playoff numbers olajuwan put up are even more impressive than the statistics from before."

Kareem had to play against more skilled big men during his tenure as an NBA center. Some of these men include, but not limited too: Wilt Chamberlain, Robert Parish, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Kevin Mchale, Artis Gilmore, and even Hakeem Olajuwon. Once again, my opponent has decided to post playoff numbers using a per 36 minute system. I will provide career playoff numbers, as I believe they provide a more clear picture as to who had a better career.

Points
Kareem-5762
Hakeem-3755
Rebounds
Kareem-2481
Hakeem-1621
Assists
Kareem-767
Hakeem-458
Blocks
Kareem-476
Hakeem-472

*Note blocks weren't recorded until the 1973-4 season. Kareem would of had at least 100 more blocks had they would of been recorded.

FG%/FT%
Kareem-.533/.740
Hakeem-.528/.719

*This stat shows that not only did Kareem score more, but he did so more efficiently

Rankings

Of the websites who cover the NBA and have ranked all-time centers, these have ranked Kareem over Hakeem


http://www.hoopsmanifesto.com...
http://bleacherreport.com...
http://msn.foxsports.com...
http://sports.espn.go.com...
http://www.geoclan.com...


Conclusion

My opponent has dropped my "Career Accomplishments" arguments, which is the core of my argument. Unless it is addressed, I have clearly provided the evidence needed to affirm Kareem over Hakeem. I will not allow my opponent to construct his argument.




Debate Round No. 2
shneeba

Pro

I just spent about 45 min writing a new one when my computer froze so I'm going to be straight forward and down to the point.
You Stated once again career playoff numbers rather than per game statistics (which I did do for the playoffs). This strategy gives another unfair advantage because Kareem never had a season in his career in which he didn't make the playoffs racking up 97 more playoff games than Hakeem. If you look back at my past arguments statistics you will see that Olajuwans playoff play isn't comparable with any center not just Kareem. I'm not punishing him that he had more games I'm just giving making this debate more fair given that Kareem also never played on a team worse than Olajuwans. Kareem always had a running mate, and those running mates just happened to be the 2 arguably best point guards to ever play in Magic and the big O. Not only that but he had Bob Dandridge and James Worthy who are some of the best SF/PF to play the game. As Olajuwan went to the Playoffs all of his statistics went upwards showing how important to the team he was along with how well he played under pressure. Kareem on the other hand went down in almost all of his stats showing that he wasn't as clutch of a player as Olajuwan and that even with his diminished role he still ended up winning all of those championships because of the team mates he had. If olajuwan played like how Kareem did in the playoffs he would not have been successful. All this means is that Kareem didn't need to help so much in the effort to win the championships behind the great players he played with, and this is evident because he only won 2 Finals MVP while he won a total of 6 Championships.

Also I would like to touch up on the MVP awards I seem to forgot in my past argument. Olajuwan and Michael Jordan were both drafted in the same year which, what I mean by that Olajuwan had to compete in MVP awards with the greatest player to ever play every year in his career (other than the years when Jordan retired and olajuwan did win)."Wilt Chamberlain, Robert Parish, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Kevin Mchale, Artis Gilmore, and even Hakeem Olajuwan." These are the centers you said Jabbar had to compete with and they were better than the players Olajuwan had to compete with. The competition for Jabbar was pathetic compared to Olajuwan. Jabbar competed against Frazier, Mccadoo and Dandridge for his MVP award and these player all won runner ups multiple times behind Jabbar. Also your statement above, about the great centers jabbar had to face werent so accurate. Some of the players you stated in your arguement played in the ABA while Jabbar was playing in the NBA. By the time these great players came out of the ABA they were over 30 and out of their primes so your satement about Jabbar competing against them was false. Also the players that werent in the ABA. Jabbar played Wilt in his first 4 seasons in the NBA. Those 4 seasons were Wilts last. You also put Mchale in there but he didn't play center and was never really guarding Jabbar so I dont know were he came from.

Also let me refer to these random and opinionated websites my oppenent used. First I would like to use one of the quotes wrote about Olajuwan on one of these websites.
"Very few players in the league's history understood how best to use his size and athleticism to topple opponents. There are many guards who understand how to keep perimeter defenders off-balance, but Olajuwon might have been the master at keeping his post defenders off-balance. His array of spins, step backs and counter moves made him a genius in the low post. Even though he rarely got individual accolades during the season, he found ways to win one-on-one matchups. On his way to two titles, he toppled Patrick Ewing, David Robinson and Shaquille O'Neal"
You decided to choose the bleacher report as one of your websites but the bleacher report is written by multiple people so there is another "report" that Olajuwon is the greastest all time from the same website.
http://bleacherreport.com...;
Instead of posting opioionated websites i will put up videos of some of the greatest players to play the game talking about olajuwan. the first one is a video of shaq saying that Jabbar is the third best center and Hakeem is the best. The second is some of other greats included chris webber and Charles Barkley talking about Olajuwan compared to Ewing. And the last is a video of olajuwan if you never really seen him play you can watch and hopefully make you realize how good he really was.



Olajuwans footwork on the offensively and defensivly excelled in every statistic, and not only did he beat his matchup all the time, he embarresed the competition and made the players look silly. In conclusion Kareem did have an all around better total career number wise if you add his career stats together, but olajuwans per game statistics in the regular season and playoffs (when everything counts) Kareem came up short and Hakeem flourished. All of this information proves that Olajuwans imediate impact on the game rather than Kareems longetivity, make Olajuwan the greatest center to ever play basketball
emj32

Con

I won't be responding to everything my opponent has posted, but I'll rebute some of his main points.

"This strategy gives another unfair advantage because Kareem never had a season in his career in which he didn't make the playoffs racking up 97 more playoff games than Hakeem."


I think his statement speaks on behalf of my side. Every team Kareem has been apart of has made the playoffs, while the same can't be said for Hakeem. The reason I don't use per 36 minute figures is because 1) Longevity is vital when discussing best ever. This isn't a best in his prime resolution, its best overall debate. Part of being the best ever is the ability to compete at a high level for as long as possible. 2) Since Kareem played for so long, even though he played at a high level throught his entire career, his statistics have obviously declined when he was in his late 30s, early 40s. Therefore, per 36 minute figures give an advantage to Hakeem.


"Kareem always had a running mate, and those running mates just happened to be the 2 arguably best point guards to ever play in Magic and the big O. Not only that but he had Bob Dandridge and James Worthy who are some of the best SF/PF to play the game."


I'm gonna keep it real, Magic Johnson helped Kareem when he was late in his career. However, even in the games Magic missed due to injury/rest, Kareem was still able to flourish. Worthy never really elevated Kareem or the Lakers until later in the Showtime Era. Dandridge isn't as good as my opponent hypes him up to be. Definitly not one of the best SFs to ever play the game. Lets not forget Kareem played against harder competiton(Dr J/Moses Malone let 76ers, Larry Bird led Celtics), while Hakeem played in a weak Western Conference during the 90s. Plus Hakeem had one of the greatest SG's ever, Clyde Drexler, on one of his championship runs.

"Some of the players you stated in your arguement played in the ABA while Jabbar was playing in the NBA. By the time these great players came out of the ABA they were over 30 and out of their primes so your satement about Jabbar competing against them was false"

Jabbar played against all these players either in their prime, or right after their prime, which is still a time zone in which a player can still play at a high level.

"Instead of posting opioionated websites i will put up videos of some of the greatest players to play the game talking about olajuwan"


Yes, because players talking about their favorite players certainly isn't opinionated.

"but olajuwans per game statistics in the regular season and playoffs (when everything counts) Kareem came up short and Hakeem flourished"


My opponent has given no examples on how Kareem "came up short" in the playoffs.



In conclusion, my opponent failed to address Kareem's better career numbers on almost every statistic, Kareem's better percentage of shots made, making him more efficient, Kareem's greater amount of apperances on the All-Star team, All-NBA team, and All-Defensive team(despite my opponent calling Hakeem the greatest defensive center ever). Kareem's better statistics, better career accomplishment totals, and greater praise from basketball analyists show Kareem was the better center, negating the resolution.


I urge a vote Con!




Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
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Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
Nice debate. I thought Kareem would be a slam dunk (pardon the pun) but I now have renewed respect for Hakeem.

1) Basically per-game statistics vs overall career statistics. Tie here, neither side refuted the other enough to make me care more about one or the other.
2) Personally I'm more impressed by per-game stats, but CON actually sourced his stats and had a valid point in longevity.
3) Both PRO and CON conceded that Magic had a big impact on Kareem's numbers.
4) I like videos, so tie on sources. Nice S&G on both sides, and good conduct too.
5) Hakeem played on a $h!tty team, Kareem played on one of the best teams ever seen in the NBA.

Close call, indeed too close, so tie. Nice debate, was fun to read.
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2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
shneebaemj32Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: see comment, nice debate
Vote Placed by htennis 4 years ago
htennis
shneebaemj32Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: PRO- define the terms of the debate early- then you won't have an argument over what stat to look at.