The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
miadm.13
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

'once saved always saved' v 'never saved to begin with' is too uncertain. only God knows

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/5/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 620 times Debate No: 59991
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

'once saved always saved' v 'never saved to begin with' is too uncertain. only God knows.

is it possible to be hitler and saved? it depends on how he approached what he did, and if htere was any sliver of repentence in his heart. only God knows that.

was hitler one who if he was ever 'saved' is still saved despite his crimes? only God knows.

was hitler one who was never saved to begin with? only God knows.
miadm.13

Con

I'm not sure what your stance is. I don't know which you took...besides "God only knows."

So here are my arguments:

-Once you become a christian (Place your faith in Christ) then you are forever a christian
-The relationship is between you and God...so yes, God certainly does know. By this I assume you mean that other people don't know your spiritual status. However...we should make it obvious about our faith so that others do know.
-never saved to begin with: the reason that this is true is that, the person never truly repented/believed. it's pretty simple. Many have a very high emotion at say...a Youth camp...but then never actively try to have a relationship with God. This emotion was just compulsive.
-Being saved isn't some type of magic. It is an active relationship.
-You can never lose your salvation: Jesus said that "I will never leave you, nor forsake you."
-People that truly repent and believe will follow Christ and his ways. Of course we are all human, and we fail, but we do try and get back up.
-Don't think I am saying that you are saved by what you do...aka Works. I don't believe that. But, if we are a christian we want to please him, by actively obeying and repenting. This demonstrates your faith. (so others know)
-So yes, you are either Saved or not. Pretty Black and White.

About Hitler...I don't get at all what that meant. Could you please clarify?

Thanks!
~MM
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

we cannot know a person's heart. they may show works or they may not. or, their works may not be viewed by us to be good.

hitler was a christian. he thought he was doing what was right for his people. we cannot judge his heart, though we can characterize his situation and perhaps he was not saved after all, as it looks like.

for an average joe. many christians live lives no different than nonchristians. even if they live a life a bit better, who are we to say whether they are saved or not?
tihs doesn't even get into the fact that according to the bible, a person can lose their salvation. such as the seed that took the word but wasplanted on bad soil and never got far. i could go on and on.

some people can seem saved and then later turn into vipers. doe that mean they were neversavd to begin with? i don't think so. but even if it was 'either they were or they weren't, it's not our place to say.

i know a christians who was beautiful at what he did. but now ihe is worldy and an avowed atheist. i'm sure his mom owuld lik to think h was was saved always saved, but how can any of us know if he was never saved to begin with or if behind that cloak he is still saved?

only God can know.
miadm.13

Con

we cannot know a person's heart. they may show works or they may not. or, their works may not be viewed by us to be good.
["]
for an average joe. many christians live lives no different than nonchristians. even if they live a life a bit better, who are we to say whether they are saved or not?

-Very true. But we know or can witness someone by their fruit.

-"15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. [Mathew 7:15-19]

hitler was a christian. he thought he was doing what was right for his people. we cannot judge his heart, though we can characterize his situation and perhaps he was not saved after all, as it looks like.

-Hitler was not a Christian.

-"You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools.
Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch."
As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews." http://www.straightdope.com...

tihs doesn't even get into the fact that according to the bible, a person can lose their salvation. such as the seed that took the word but wasplanted on bad soil and never got far. i could go on and on.

-No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God"s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God"s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy"to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen." [http://www.gotquestions.org...]

some people can seem saved and then later turn into vipers. doe that mean they were neversavd to begin with? i don't think so. but even if it was 'either they were or they weren't, it's not our place to say.

-21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" [Mathew 7:21-23]

i know a christians who was beautiful at what he did. but now ihe is worldy and an avowed atheist. i'm sure his mom owuld lik to think h was was saved always saved, but how can any of us know if he was never saved to begin with or if behind that cloak he is still saved? only God can know.

-The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase "who are Christians." The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed. [http://www.gotquestions.org...]

Furthering my arguments: the term "Christian" must be defined. A "Christian" is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what "makes" a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
["]
A Christian is promised eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, "Believe and you will have eternal life." For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life? [http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com...]

You are either saved or not. I would also like to point out that you have not supplied any Biblical Evidence.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

you gave an example of someone falling away who was never christian to begin with. but theyre's also people who fall away cause they were good but then became bad. ...

a chrisitan can lose his standing.

1 John 5:11-17
"If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it. All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death."

i also gave the example of the word taking root in someone but then they fell away cause they were in bad soil. "18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.""

i could go on and on with versesthat show losing yoru standing.

with hitler, or that man who seemed zeolous for God but then turned into an atheist, we don't know their heart. we can see that they are probably nt in favor with God. but to sin means to intentionally, do, what you know, is wrong. these guys may be following their conscious and we can't judge, or even characterize. only God can.

plus forr a lot of average joes christian what can we conclude? sme might have a better heart than a lot of christians but they might not. how do we know if they were never saved to begin with o whether they saved all alrong? conside that evenchristians struggle with say masturabation, sex before marriage, anger problems, hatred, drunkenness, marital infidelity..... christians make mistakes, but so do people who pose as christians but were never christian to begin with. it's not our plance to know a person's heart.
miadm.13

Con

"you gave an example of someone falling away who was never christian to begin with."
-I don't know what you are referring to...

"but theyre's also people who fall away cause they were good but then became bad. ... a chrisitan can lose his standing."

-Christians sin everyday just like everyone else. However, a true Christian will not continue in his sin (think it is okay)
1 John 3:9: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God"s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
-Also, if we are truly saved (have the Holy Spirit within us) then we know this:
Philippians 1:6 (New International Version): 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
In other words...if we are truly saved, God will NOT stop. He continues His work within us until the day we die.

"1 John 5:11-17 "If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it. All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death."

-You are taking this verse out context.
-this means that some sins (example: murder) God may put you to death. (lead to death) example is of David's son when he killed Baethsheba's husband. He was of course still saved. He confessed (like a lot, basically the Psalms) and was forgiven.

"i also gave the example of the word taking root in someone but then they fell away cause they were in bad soil. "

-this example doesn't do anything for you! They were never a Christian.
-You gave it to me yourself: 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

-This is a true Christian: "But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.""

" i could go on and on with verses that show losing your standing."

-I'm sure you could...but the examples you would give are not accurate. NOWHERE in the Bible is there one of a True Christian losing their salvation.
-I'm assuming standing=salvation...since that's what you have been arguing.
-Christians (and true Christians by that) can definitely go astray but never to the point where they lose their place in the Book of life. It can never be "blotted or erased"

"with hitler, or that man who seemed zeolous for God but then turned into an atheist, we don't know their heart. we can see that they are probably nt in favor with God. "

-You haven't given any evidence at all for this...this is kinda just a random opinion I have never heard.
-Hitler was originally Catholic I believe.
-Christians wouldn't consider it okay to kill people (especially if they are God's chosen people)

"but to sin means to intentionally, do, what you know, is wrong."

-Yep. Sin: transgression of theological principles: an act, thought, or way of behaving that goes against the law or teachings of a religion, especially when the person who commits it is aware of this

" these guys may be following their conscious and we can't judge, or even characterize. only God can."

-This is a completely off the topic new debate...
-We can judge. We are called to do so: 1 Corinthians 5:12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders[meaning people not in the church (non Christians)]? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"

" plus forr a lot of average joes christian what can we conclude? sme might have a better heart than a lot of christians but they might not. how do we know if they were never saved to begin with o whether they saved all alrong?"
conside that evenchristians struggle with say masturabation, sex before marriage, anger problems, hatred, drunkenness, marital infidelity..... christians make mistakes, but so do people who pose as christians but were never christian to begin with.

-I've already established that everyone sins (including Christians)...so...
-We are also all on our own road/path, meaning that we learn things differently. Depending on what God has in store for our lives.
-We are not all as mature spiritually as everyone else. Ex: Solomon and his son

:it's not our plance to know a person's heart."

-What does that even mean?...we don't know someone's heart. It is impossible.

Like I have established: Christians sin just like everybody else...but they understand it is not pleasing to the Lord so they try to stop. (struggle with it...and hopefully eventually conquer it) once God saves someone, they are ALWAYS saved.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 3 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Posted by MyDinosaurHands 3 years ago
MyDinosaurHands
Tip to Con, if your potential opponent hasn't stated clearly the grounds of the debate, don't get involved, at least not without clarification. If you do, there's no telling what kind of semantics BS you could encounter.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 3 years ago
bladerunner060
dairygirl4u2cmiadm.13Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate never really addressed the resolution properly, and I don't think it can be scored properly as a result. Both sides had issues with coherency and sentence construction. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.