The Instigator
McGyver
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Zaradi
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

our government should be completely replaced

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Zaradi
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/3/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 457 times Debate No: 67763
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (4)

 

McGyver

Pro

I will do pro our government needs to be replaced my opponent will do con our government is perfect.

Our government was mad at china for hacking us when Edward Snowden released top secret documents that shows our government was wiretapping other world leaders phones which is illegal. Obama claims not to know anything about this so he is either an idiot or a liar
Zaradi

Con

I accept, I'll be arguing that our government (being a Democratic Republic, a decent explanation being here http://en.wikipedia.org...) ought not be replaced. The burden of proof rests on pro, since he's essentially arguing for a change in the status quo, therefore needs to justify why we ought to change. Short of a good reason to change, we have no reason to change.

Right now it's kind of hard to make an argument because my opponent doesn't really give us any kind of alternative to look at, i.e. what he would replace our current government with, nor does he give a critique of our current government and it's harms, so there's not a whole lot for me to talk about yet. The only thing he does kind of talk about is Obama being hypocritial, but there's a lot of problems with this argument:

First, He just says that we've been wiretaping people and since Obama said he didn't know about it, it makes him either an idiot or a liar. But it ignores the possibly that, y'know, he actually might have not been aware of it.

Second, even if Obama was in on the wiretaping, that doesn't even mean we could really impeach him, let alone is it a reason to replace our government wholesale.

Like, he just doesn't really make that cohesive of an argument here, so there's not a lot for me to refute. I'll go ahead and pass it back over to him and hope there's something more substansive to respond to next round.

Debate Round No. 1
McGyver

Pro

Obama has been in office, increasing from $5,749,916,000,000 at the end of January 2009 to $11,825,322,000,000 at the end of January 2014, according to the U.S. Treasury's latest. from http://cnsnews.com...

A Border Patrol official who was removed from his position in June is accusing the agency of covering up "highly suspect" deaths in clashes along the southern border.
James F. Tomsheck tells the Center for Investigative Reporting that at least seven deaths along the border since 2010 were "highly suspect," according to a story by the non-profit news organization based in California.
Militias Complicate Situation on Texas Border
"In nearly every instance, there was an effort by Border Patrol leadership to make a case to justify the shooting versus doing a genuine, appropriate review of the information and the facts at hand," Tomsheck told the news organization.
Tomsheck was removed as head of the internal affairs office for U.S. Customs and Border Protection in June. He is still with the agency, working as executive director for national programs, the story said. He has filed a whistleblower complaint with the federal Office of Special Counsel.
Mexico Blasts Texas for Guard on Border
Tomsheck did not return emails or phone messages seeking comment Monday. The Center for Investigative Reporting said Tomsheck gave the news organization a "sweeping and unauthorized" interview.
Immigration advocates have raised concerns about border agents' use of deadly force against people who throw rocks at them along the Mexican border. When Customs and Border Protection announced in June that Tomsheck was being replaced as head of internal affairs, his departure was greeted as a positive step by those same advocates. from http://www.nbcdfw.com...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, " That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." -- Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776
1. The most obvious reason for abolishing the U.S. government is that the U.S. government does not fulfill its purpose -- not even close. It does not represent the will of the people or operate in their best interests.

2. By guile and deception, the U.S. government makes every effort to make the people believe it is controlled by the people and operates in their best interest, when it doesn't. The government lies to the people and deceives the people as a matter of standard operating procedure. It pretends to be a democratic republic by offering the illusion of choice to the people, when in fact the primary choices are orchestrated and steered by an assortment of subtle but powerful control mechanisms.

3. The government is controlled by a cabal of hidden, very rich, very powerful, and very dangerous psychological deviants (sociopaths) who are not elected and are not constrained by laws, morals, or ethics. This cabal is an exclusive club that only allows people of similar psychological deviancy to join.

4. Like any criminal operation, the government hides what it is really doing behind layers of secrecy. Secrecy is standard operating procedure. Far too much is "classified for reasons of national security". Obviously, a government cannot represent the will of the people or operate in their best interests if what it does is kept from the people.

5. The U.S. government is fiscally irresponsible to the extreme and is in the process of bankrupting not only the corporate entity that it is (it should not even be a corporate entity), but is also bankrupting all of American society right down to the individual American citizen.

6. The government gave away control of our money to a private, for-profit central bank (the Federal Reserve) 100 years ago. During those 100 years, this central bank has destroyed 98% of the value of the dollar, and will continue this trend until the dollar has no value whatsoever. All dollars will become worthless, and any wealth that Americans hold as dollars will vanish. It is pre-meditated robbery, plain and simple. A legitimate government does not rob people of their hard-earned wealth.

7. The government has actively participated in undermining all social areas that are fundamental to a free and independent people. It has facilitated the undermining of the free press, which is now a tightly controlled press that delivers heavy government propaganda. Education has been turned into a system of behavioral control to turn out obedient workers rather than independent and critical thinkers. All major systems that would normally enrich society - the judicial system, the military, the police, the health care system, the pharmaceutical industry, the transportation system, energy, agriculture, science, and many others - have been twisted into serving the government and not the people.

8. Government policy is clearly one of instigating wars and selling arms. The U.S. government is selling peace and democracy by sweet words, but producing war and tyranny by vile action.

9. The government directed "war on drugs" is fake. In reality, the criminal cabal directing the government profits immensely from the production and sale of illegal drugs. Drugs are made illegal to eliminate competition and establish an effective monopoly for the government to clandestinely dominate the drug industry. Besides the monetary profit from drugs which finances other black operations, the drugs also help anesthetize the general population to keep them passive and ineffectual, facilitating government control and domination over the people.

10. "Free" energy technologies that would benefit the public are vigorously suppressed by the government. This prevents competition with the traditional energy business, which empowers the criminal cabal through lucrative profits and monopoly control of that business. All of humanity is thus denied the abundance it would normally have, if only there were no corrupt government enforcing destructive but lucrative energy policies.

http://know-insanity.blogspot.com...
Zaradi

Con

Oh baby, the copy-paste is real...

A'ight. We got from here ("Obama has been in office,") to about here ("fromhttp://cnsnews.com...;) as his own actual text. The rest he just flat-out copy-pastes the text from the articles, providing no actual analysis or explanation of what's going on. If I wanted to debate the people who wrote the articles, I wouldn't be on here. Hold his blatant use of control-c-control-v against him. But let's respond to everything anyway.

"Obama has been in office, increasing from $5,749,916,000,000 at the end of January 2009 to $11,825,322,000,000 at the end of January 2014"

First, no impact. Even if our debt (that's what the increase is talking about, for those of you who can't decipher what he's actually talking about from what he typed (actually I take that back, it wasn't even his own text, it was just really incoherently copy-pasted) and what he meant) has raised, he's not making any kind of actual argument off of it or telling us what it means or why this actually matters.

Secondly, even if this does matter, it doesn't actually have an impact. That's just showing that, at best, Obama's a sh*tty president. We can't even impeach him off of that.

Thirdly, even if we could impeach him off of that, it wouldn't justify replacing the government wholesale, rather just something we could use to replcae Obama with someone who doesn't spend as much.


"A Border Patrol official who was removed ...his departure was greeted as a positive step by those same advocates."

First, there's no impact to this again. He gives us no reason to think that this matters nor what to do with this as a judge. He just copy-pastes the article and drops the mic, like his job there was done. Not quite bud...not quite...

Second, there's not even a way for this to actually impact the debate. One horror story doesn't mean we scrap the government. It's relevancy entirely is questionable.

And I'm not even gonna bother responding to the Constitution quote since there's absolutely no relevancy there either. I'd rather get to the fun stuff: the list of ten reasons he copy-pastes.

"the U.S. government does not fulfill its purpose"

First, this is literally a bare assertion with no warrant to back it up.

Second, saying it doesn't represent the will of the people when it's the people who choose who are in power is silly.

"By guile and deception, ... but powerful control mechanisms."

inb4 illuminati

First, no warrant again. I would say it's literally him just asserting this to be true, but it's not even him saying it since he's just copy-pasting it.

Second, there's no reason to believe this either since it would fundamentally not be in their interest to screw with the citizenry. Not only is it their job to protect us and to promote our wellbeing, but the Consitution gives us clear legal pathways for correcting the corruption, meaning that we have no reason to believe they would even do this.

Third, the claim itself is entirely unverifiable since if he's right then there won't be any way to actually prove it since they're lying to us in the first place. The claim inevitably just boils down to "conspiracy rah rah illuminati rah rah just trust me politicians are stealing from us" without a single shred of proof.

"The government is controlled by a cabal"

Did I call the illuminati thing, or did I call it? Another day, another bare assertion with no evidence whatsoever.

Actually, screw going through each of these individually. None of them have the slightest bit of a warrant, nor the slightest bit of an impact. If the current administration is as corrupt as he's trying to make it out to be, that still doesn't justify doing away with the entire structure of our government, rather just replacing the people in office with people who aren't going to scam us. Even if you buy literally 100% of his unwarranted, copy-pasted, conspiracy-nut bullsh*t, he still doesn't win the debate because at best it means we just impeach Obama and virtually all of the Senate/House and start from scratch, not redo the entire structure of our government.

Nor does he answer my concerns from the previous round, namely what are we replacing it with? Are we replacing the illuminati with hitler? Are we just leaving a massive power vaccum around for any person with enough authority and tyrranical control to fill at his own leisure? He provides no alternative, so there's no reason to believe that there's a better system than what we have going right now.

I'm passing it back over to him, hoping for an actual argument this time.
Debate Round No. 2
McGyver

Pro

McGyver forfeited this round.
Zaradi

Con

And the forfeits start...
Debate Round No. 3
McGyver

Pro

McGyver forfeited this round.
Zaradi

Con

Almost done...
Debate Round No. 4
McGyver

Pro

McGyver forfeited this round.
Zaradi

Con

Ayyyyyy we done here boys.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by IndianaFrank 2 years ago
IndianaFrank
I'm not sure you could find anyone who thinks our government is perfect, except at the local mental hospital.
Posted by Josh_debate 2 years ago
Josh_debate
I don't know about replaceing the government, but it should be reduced.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
McGyverZaradiTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by SeventhProfessor 2 years ago
SeventhProfessor
McGyverZaradiTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Not only does the blatant copy/paste result in an automatic forfeit, the copy/pasted arguments were either so incoherent or irrelevant to Con's R1 arguments he would have lost anyway.
Vote Placed by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
McGyverZaradiTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Dreadful conduct from Pro with the copy-pastes. Along with the round forfeits, conduct must go to Con. Con's counter-arguments were substantial and went unrefuted. Therefore, argument points go to Con. No source points to Pro because of the terrible use of them.
Vote Placed by BLAHthedebator 2 years ago
BLAHthedebator
McGyverZaradiTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture and dropped arguments.