The Instigator
fouru
Pro (for)
Losing
8 Points
The Contender
Chrysippus
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

pc is better than mac

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/5/2009 Category: Technology
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,376 times Debate No: 9955
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (5)

 

fouru

Pro

PC is better than mac because WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE. Let's face it people, all software out there support windows.

Do you want less clicks??? Well windows have Better keyboard shortcuts

Windows is more customizable, you can make your windows look like mac, linux, and much more.

(I have the exact same debate with someone else but i didn't get to debate with him because he didn't post any argument. So I made another one.)
Chrysippus

Con

Normally at this point, I thank my opponent for giving me the chance to debate him. As I took this debate in order to teach my opponent to better form his thoughts before attempting a debate, I will follow form.

I thank my worthy opponent for according me this opportunity to match wits, and hope that his will be more in evidence as the debate progresses.

The resolution stated by my opponent is "PC is better than mac because WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE."

He has undertaken to affirm this; my burden is to disprove his argument(s). I do not have to prove that Apple computers are superior; I merely have to show that my opponent's argument(s) are fallacious.

--------------
DEFINITIONS:
PC: –noun: a microcomputer designed for individual use, as by a person in an office or at home or school, for such applications as word processing, data management, financial analysis, or computer games. Abbreviation: PC

Or, culturally:

A computer typically used in the home, office, or school. Also a generic term for a PC Microsoft� operating system.

Both definitions found here: http://dictionary.reference.com...

Mac: computer built by Apple Computers
Windows: OS built and updated by Microsoft Corp.
Mac OS: OS built and updated by Apple Computers

Better: 1. of superior quality or excellence
2. morally superior; more virtuous
3. of superior suitability, advisability, desirability, acceptableness, etc.; preferable
http://dictionary.reference.com...

---------------
ANALYSIS:
"PC is better than mac because WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE."
Let's take this a bite at a time, shall we?

"PC..."
Any PC? All PC's? Unlike Macs, there is no one manufacturer for PC's; standards or production and hardware abilities vary wildly from maker to maker, from model to model. If he posits "Any PC is better than any Mac," all I must do is to provide links to a Mac and an inferior PC to win. Similarly if he intended to say, "ALL PC's are better than ALL Macs;" the existence of just one Apple computer better than even one of the thousands of models of PC's out there is sufficient to destroy his resolution.

A Mac: http://www.apple.com...
A PC: http://www.savetz.com...

Your resolution fails here.

"...better..." Better for what? Better for who? Under what circumstances is this judgment true? "Better" is almost entirely without context here, and desperately needs some.

"...WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE."

Compatible with what? More compatible than what? Don't force your audience or your opponent to read between the lines; you may not be pleased with what they come up with.

I assume you mean software; but you could be referring to peripherals, shipping standards, or the size constraints of a computer desk. In any of these, I assure you, Apple computers are fully compatible. Here are examples of:

Software for Mac OS:

Peripherals for Apple Computers:

Desks that will accommodate Apple Computers:

Conversely, an Apple Computer that can fit on almost any desk:

Evidence that Apple Computers are compatible with shipping:

Your resolution fails at this point as well.

"PC is better than mac because WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE." -This is grammatically incorrect; it should be "PC's are..."

-------
CONCLUSION OF ANALYSIS:
For your resolution to be true, you must show that:
a) greater "compatibility" is a good thing,
b) Windows machines are more "compatible" than Mac OS machines (and with what).

To do this, you will have to out forth considerably more effort than is evidenced by your first round. You have two more chances, and a summary; I require solid,well thought out arguments with a direct bearing on the resolution; carefully planned refutations of my opposition; and strict adherence to the definitions. Otherwise, my dear Fouru, you will fail.

Even then, though, your resolution is doomed, for it fails to take into account one very important detail.

All Macs are PC's.

The first, second, third and fourth definitions of PC (personal computer) on Dictionary.com are all statements to the effect of "an computer for individual or home use." All Apple Computers dealt with in this debate fall under this definition.

PC's cannot be better than Macs for any reason, since Macs ARE PC's.

Your resolution fails. Again.

--------------
REFUTATION OF ARGUMENT:
My opponent made only one "argument" cogent to this debate: "Let's face it people, all software out there support windows."

Try "supports." Check your Grammar before posting; it is important in a formal debate.

I assume that my opponent means by "all software," "all software capable of being used on a home computer (a PC)." The sentence is somewhat murky; it could mean:
1) All software "supports" (i.e: permits or aids to run) Windows;
2) All software "supports" (i.e: directly aids financially) Windows/Microsoft;
or
3) Windows "supports" (i.e: runs) all software.

If none of these are my opponent's intention, then perhaps he has an argument. Let him reveal it. These will not do.

All three of these possible meanings are false.

To disprove utterly:
1) Here is an example of a program that does not aid Windows to run: http://store.apple.com...

2) Here is an example of a program. I defy my opponent to prove this program makes any direct financial contribution to Microsoft: http://mac.gettranslateit.com...

3)Here is an example of a program that will not run on Windows unaided: http://www.neooffice.org...
And another: http://www.feedface.com...
And another: http://www.michi.nu...
And another: http://slappingturtle.com...
And another: http://www.gkoya.com...
And another: http://www.macupdate.com...
And another: http://comix.sourceforge.net...
And yet another: http://deepit.ru...

For any of these to run on your Windows machine, you must use a Mac OS Emulator: http://www.emulators.com...

There are Windows Emulators that run on Mac OS machines: http://www.winehq.org...
The supposed advantage of software compatibility is negated by the fact that one can run the same programs on either.

Your "argument," with no sources, proof, or reasoning, fails. It does not even adequately address your case.

All of the other remarks of my opponent are not arguments, are tangential to the resolution, and are not worthy of my time. If he can show how they are cogent to compatibility, I will address them then.

To my opponent, then; best of luck!
Debate Round No. 1
fouru

Pro

I am very sorry to say but... IT'S THE MONEY STUPID! If you're got a lot of extra spare cash laying around that you don't care about, then by all means, buy a Mac. But if, like most of the world, you've got to work for a living, then you'll find that a PC's is far less expensive than a Mac.

And if you are a gamer like me than PC is better! "OHHHHH WE CAN USE BOOT CAMP" are you kidding me???? PC all you do is pop the CD and play the game.

And face the fact... All great computers like Ibuypower and Alienware are all pc.

And windows is more compatible in software....
Chrysippus

Con

I thank my opponent for giving me this opportunity to explain for newcomers to debate some of the most common mistakes made by new debaters, and how to avoid them. My opponent has kindly provided me with quite a sampling in these few terse sentences, and I have high hopes of more to come in his last two rounds.

With that, let me remind my audience of the resolution for this debate.

"PC is better than mac because WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE."
I quote my opponent. He set this impossible premise; not I. And with that, he committed one of the the most common mistakes of new debaters:
1. Improperly worded resolution.

Basically, when you start a debate, make it winnable. Do not paint yourself into a corner by making a contradiction in the very first sentence of your round.

Problems with this particular wording:
a)Change of terms. He first speaks of PC's, and then of Windows. PC =/= equal Windows, PC = Personal Computer; which made it childishly simple for me to win IN THE VERY FIRST ROUND by showing all Macs are PC's.
b)Undefined terms. What on earth does "compatible" mean? Software? Or, as he drifts on in the rest of his round, keyboard shortcuts and customizing?

He then commits the cardinal error of new debaters; the worst thing you can do in a debate. Worse than insults, worse than bad grammar, worse even than circular reasoning:
2) Statements instead of arguments.
"Let's face it people, all software out there support windows."
This is a statement. It can be falsified easily with a little elementary research, as I did. It is not an argument.

Now, don't misunderstand me; debates are supposed to start with a statement; a clear, carefully worded statement called a Resolution or a Proposition, clearly labeled and explained later. But, if your round consists only of statements, you have given us no reason to believe you. Convince us. Give us reasoning, arguments, reasons to change our minds.

My opponent in both rounds has posted no arguments, and thereby has wasted two whole rounds. He expects us to take him at his word that Windows machines are better than Apple machines. Which brings us to the next error of the beginning debater:
3)No sources.
My opponent has not even attempted to back up any of his claims with evidence. In the debating world, unverified statements are considered false until the debater takes the time to back them up. When you craft your round, make sure you can back up what you say by links or citations from relevant, trustworthy, relatively unbiased sources. This may take considerable digging; simply citing Wikipedia is not usually adequate.

Another serious error on my opponent's part:
4) Undefined Terms.
He laid himself wide open for a sematics argument by not providing any definitions. Had he carefully defined his terms, I would have little room to twist his words into an argument he could not win. As it was, I was the first to post any definitions. The general rule is that the first posted definitions are the ones used in the debate; especially if the instigator is the one defining. Dictionary.com is a very good source for definitions, as are online non-wiki encyclopedias.

I indicated several possible paths last round I could have twisted this debate down had I chose, simply by choosing a definition. The debater would be wise to avoid ambiguity in crucial terms.

-------------------
With that, I turn my attention to my opponent's second round. It seems equally instructive.

"I am very sorry to say but... IT'S THE MONEY STUPID!"

I am sorry to find my opponent reduced to this state. He has no response to any of my refutations other than to insult my intelligence. Here he commits a serious error:
5) Ad Homniem.
This is a failure in logic, where he attacks me rather than my argument. My intelligence or lack thereof has nothing to do with the validity of my arguments, and statements like this are attempts to influence the voters emotionally despite the weakness of his arguments. (Or baseless statements, in his case.)

Next, please.

"If you're got a lot of extra spare cash laying around that you don't care about, then by all means, buy a Mac. But if, like most of the world, you've got to work for a living, then you'll find that a PC's is far less expensive than a Mac."

First, his statement here is on the compared PRICE of Windows machines and Apple machines, and is completely irrelevant to a debate on the COMPATIBILITY of same. This debate is on compatibility, as he established at the beginning. His statement here is an attempt to change the resolution mid-debate, which is VERY bad form, and I will not stand for it.

Second, he did not do his research. At the bottom of this page, http://www.apple.com... you will find a little statement: Buy iMac from $1199.

He mentions Alienware; I looked it up. Here is a comparable Alienware computer, although it does not include a monitor; buying one will increase the price. http://www.amazon.com...
Notice the price: from $1,799.99

The point of even considering his statement? Do not post something you know nothing about! The research I did to disprove this point took me all of thirty seconds; debaters would be well advised to do their own research so that their opponents will not catch them flatfooted.

"And if you are a gamer like me than PC is better! "OHHHHH WE CAN USE BOOT CAMP" are you kidding me???? PC all you do is pop the CD and play the game."

Nice to know; but completely irrelevant. This argument goes off on a tangent to the original resolution; convenience has little or nothing to do with compatibility. Another thing to keep in mind when framing your debate:
6) Keep arguments on topic.
You may rant for 8000 characters on any topic you choose; but you will win or lose on how well you handle the topic of the debate.
---------
Some may ask: "But aren't you off-topic yourself? This entire round, have you argued your own case at all?"

I have dealt with the original resolution in my first round. He has done nothing to refute my arguments there. Nothing. He has not challenged any of my sources, definitions, or points. He has given no alternate explanations for "compatible," on which his only hope for success in this debate rested. He has not challenged my argument that all Macs are PC's, thus conceding this point _and the entire debate._

I have all the time in the world to rip my opponent's posts to quivering shreds, as I have already won.

Inescapably, utterly, inevitably won.

My opponent is an example of what bad form in debating will do to the unwary; I am taking my time to make an example of him, so that he and the other new debaters on this site may learn better habits of thinking.

---------------------
Two more points.

"...All great computers like Ibuypower and Alienware are all pc."

Yes, these ARE PC's. This sentence shows a deep understanding of this vital concept on my opponent's part. iMacs are ALSO PC's. I have shown this in my first round, and he has not contradicted me yet.

http://www.cray.com...
Cray = great computer. Cray =/= PC.

"And windows is more compatible in software...."
A statement. Proof, please?
He now indicates that he meant "compatible in software." I have shown that Mac computers can run software, that there are programs that Windows machines cannot run natively, and that with the use of emulators either OS can run exactly the same programs.

In other words, he has yet to begin to prove his point. I refer him to my first round, in which I detailed what this site expects from him (http://www.debate.org... ); even though he cannot win, I still hope he will give this debate a much stronger effort in his next two rounds.

To my opponent then; best of luck!

.
Debate Round No. 2
fouru

Pro

fouru forfeited this round.
Chrysippus

Con

I expected this, but am nonetheless disappointed.

And I quote:
"5. Don't Ever Forfeit a Round"

"Even if you don't have time to leave a full response, DO NOT forfeit a round. Forfeiting a round destroys your credibility and makes it less likely that voters will vote for you. If you can't post a full response, write as much as you can, and leave a simple sentence stating that you are unable to post a full argument and will return for the next round. This lets your opponent know that you still wish to participate in the debate and allows them to elaborate their argument."
http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to point out that forfeiting rounds is a terrible strategy for winning debates. This debate has been a major disappointment for me, for when I took it I believed that my opponent actually wanted to debate. Obviously he was not serious about this at all, having given no effort to convincing us that his position is correct.

My arguments stand unaltered. I ask that my opponent, out of courtesy for the voters no less than myself, make the effort to post something in his final round.
Debate Round No. 3
fouru

Pro

i am really really really sorry. I didn't mean to forfeit a round. Well here is my last point (i am going to have to make this short)

1. macs are popular because of Ipod. People don't usually buy a mac because it's too expensive like i said before.You get 2 choice. $400 pc or about $1200 mac? Macs monitor is about $900 and that's for a normal mac monitor pc monitor's about $500 (some are LCD ones are $100 as well) for a normal not too expensive monitor. Many of us are gamers as well, then buy a PC.

2. By now everyone has heard about windows 7. The task bar is just amazing. The computer looks great.

3. PC has a mode called compatibility mode, which allows you to run any application that you are not having a great time running in the current OS. The compatibility mode helps you to run old application and not only that it reduces problems too.

4. You can't selfbuild a mac. Like ibuypower you are able to create the pc that you like.

Sorry that's all i can write.
I enjoyed the debate.

vote for PC :)

enjoy the rap
Chrysippus

Con

To begin my last round, I would like to apologize to my opponent for having been perhaps unnecessarily harsh with him. Had I known his time was so very short, I would have allowed him more lee-way.

I will introduce no new arguments in this round, as my opponent cannot respond. I will confine my remarks to handling my opponent's last arguments, and concluding.

Note please that my opponent has not dealt with any of my arguments from my first round. These have been extended each round, unrefuted; and now I hold them to be affirmed.

_________
Taking each of my opponent's arguments in order:
1. Cost. "You get 2 choice. $400 pc or about $1200 mac? Macs monitor is about $900 and that's for a normal mac monitor pc monitor's about $500 (some are LCD ones are $100 as well) for a normal not too expensive monitor."

First, this debate is about "PC is better than mac because WINDOWS IS MORE COMPATIBLE." Cost and compatibility are two separate issues, as I have already mentioned.

Second, he is offering us here a false dichotomy, in limiting our options to only the cheapest new PC he can find and one of the best Macs available. I have already listed a "gamer-worthy" pc that costs $1,799.99 OR MORE. Alienware, one of the best lines of gaming machines out there, can be far more expensive than the baseline iMac (as I showed in R2); conversely, there is the Mac Mini starting at $599, making this computer only $200 more expensive than the cheapest Windows machine my opponent mentioned. http://www.apple.com...

2. If it's a matter of opinion, I prefer the appearance of Leopard (Mac OS 10.5) to Windows 7. MacOSX has had the Dock for a long time now; a convenient feature that Windows is only just implementing as the Taskbar. Frankly, though, in debate opinions are irrelevant; this entire point has no bearing on the debate, and can be disregarded.

3. This is convenient, I will admit; the ability to run programs from older versions of Windows is something that has been lacking for a long time. Note however, that this only allows the operation of programs made for Windows.
http://www.microsoft.com...

In other words, if you want to run a program written only for Mac, you will still need an emulator.

This is a good point, though. Compatibility is not necessarily between competing OS's; sometimes it is between different versions of the same OS. If Windows XP were alone in this ability, I would have to concede this part of my argument.

However, Mac OSX has had such backwards-compatibility for years. It's called Classic: http://www.apple.com...

4. Partially true. If you order your Mac online, you specify the amount of memory, size/number of hard drives, type of graphics card, etc. It is customized. However, you cannot mod a mac as you can an IBM or Alienware. My opponent has a valid point here.

However, this debate is not about customization; it is about compatibility. My opponent's argument would be suited to a debate comparing the general merits of Windows computers and Apple computers, but is irrelevant to this one; we are only comparing one aspect of the two types, and this argument does not touch on that aspect.

_____________
CONCLUSION:
1. The resolution is negated because Apple computers are capable of running the exact same programs that Windows machines are;

and

2. The resolution is negated by the fact that Macs are personal computers (PC).

I also enjoyed this debate. I wish my opponent all the best in his future debates!

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Chrysippus 7 years ago
Chrysippus
"i am really really really sorry. I didn't mean to forfeit a round. "
...Aaaand now I feel like a brute. I was far too mean to Fouru in this debate; apparently he had even less time than I.

We're going to have to debate another time, Fouru; when we both are slightly less harassed for time. I think with a better-worded resolution, we could have a great debate together.

Here is my RFD:
C: Pro. Con was unnecessarily discourteous; that round-long rant about proper form was in itself bad form. Save such things for the comment's section.

SP/G: tied.

A: Con. Mostly because of the poor wording of the resolution, but also because Pro accidentally limited the scope of the debate to an area in which Windows and Mac are equal.

S: tied. Pro used almost no sources; Con abused his sources by overposting/citing questionable or biased websites.
Posted by Chrysippus 7 years ago
Chrysippus
Winning is not the most important thing. Putting up a good fight, that's the most important part of debate. Fouru could still have debated well.
Posted by silntwaves 7 years ago
silntwaves
dangg. fouru already got beat! :]
Posted by Chrysippus 7 years ago
Chrysippus
Forgot to put in the links for one part; here they are:

Examples of:
-Software for Mac OS:

-Peripheral for Apple Computers: http://store.apple.com...

-Desk that will accommodate Apple Computers: http://www.amazon.com...

-Conversely, an Apple Computer that can fit on almost any desk: http://store.apple.com...

-Evidence that Apple Computers are compatible with shipping: http://a248.e.akamai.net...
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by home_of_the_brave 5 years ago
home_of_the_brave
fouruChrysippusTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Erick 5 years ago
Erick
fouruChrysippusTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Vote Placed by VoodooChild 6 years ago
VoodooChild
fouruChrysippusTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Vote Placed by X_mitchell 6 years ago
X_mitchell
fouruChrysippusTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Chrysippus 7 years ago
Chrysippus
fouruChrysippusTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:13