The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
greatbigworld
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

poet colin leslie dean is a threat to world security according to NATO-for underming science

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,137 times Debate No: 51333
Debate Rounds (5)
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shakuntala

Pro

Australian leading erotic poet colin leslie dean is a threat to world security,according to NATO

Deans books pointing out science/maths ends in meaninglessness are attacks upon science which NATO regards as a threat to global security

NATO finds anti science a threat to world security

beware colin leslie dean and his followers

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info...
The Group's Report identifies six key "challenges", which may often result as potential threats to global security:

point 6 says

Quote
There is also the more philosophic problem of the rise of the irrational ? the discounting of the rational. Though seemingly abstract, this problem is demonstrated in deeply practical ways. [These include] the decline of respect for logical argument and evidence, a drift away from science in a civilization that is deeply technological

such works as these
the absurdities in psychoanalysis and science that makes psychoanalysis a science
gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/.../psychoanalysis/absurd_in_psych.pdf

http://www.scribd.com...
"Man can not know the universe as his language used to know it only falsifies the universe. This results in the death of man i.e. the death of asserting a privileged observer of the universe."

gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/philosophy/Decentred1.pdfR06;
"MAN IS DECENTRED. BY. COLIN LESLIE DEAN ... falsifies the universe. Thus man looses his ability to be a privileged knower of the universe

Godels-incompleteness-theorem-invalid-illegitimate
http://www.scribd.com...

GODEL?S INCOMPLETENESS THEOREM. ENDS IN ABSURDITY OR MEANINGLESSNESS GODEL IS A COMPLETE FAILURE AS HE ENDS IN UTTER MEANINGLESSNESS CASE STUDY IN THE MEANINGLESSNESS OF ALL VIEWS

http://www.scribd.com...

Mathematics Ends in Meaninglessness ie self-contradiction

http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com...

Absurdities or meaninglessness or irrationality is no hindrance [sic] to something being 'true' rationality, or, Freedom from contradiction or paradox is not a necessary an/or sufficient condition for 'truth': mathematics and science examples
greatbigworld

Con

His thesis, as I interpret it, is that due to limitations in language, scientific observations cannot be elocuted with complete accuracy, thereby undermining the accuracy of the theories and principles we promulgate. Even if he was accurate in this (which he is not-- by it's very nature, language evolves in order to properly express abstract ideas and innovations), this does not exactly ADD anything to human scientific or philosophical understanding. In essence, it's merely an appeal to a lingual, rather than general sensory, solipsism; an idea held in some scorn for its status as untestable and unfalsifiable nature. Indeed, even if we accept it as fact (which no right-minded person would), we are left with two options: either we renounce all attempts to understand the universe, or we proceed in our current manner regardless. In this way, Mr. Dean's thesis is both of no value, and as merely a reapplication of solipsism, unoriginal.
Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

con admits colin leslie dean is a is a threat to world security according to NATO
con says

"His thesis, as I interpret it, ...we are left with two options: either we renounce all attempts to understand the universe, ...

thank you con for agreeing with the pro position
greatbigworld

Con

I did agree.
But there is things that I didn't agree with.

'His thesis, as I interpret it, is that due to limitations in language, scientific observations cannot be elocuted with complete accuracy, thereby undermining the accuracy of the theories and principles we promulgate. Even if he was accurate in this (which he is not-- by it's very nature, language evolves in order to properly express abstract ideas and innovations), this does not exactly ADD anything to human scientific or philosophical understanding. '
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"I did agree.
I thank you con you are the first person on here that has had an honest debate
the rest just disparage and bag

I put this down to-perhaps wrongly- because you are a scientist
the arts people cannot get any objectivity into their debate their debate are all ad hominums

I thank you
greatbigworld

Con

Science is my only good subject endless im playing sports.
this is his formula.

40. reduAxiom(x) V60; W07;u,v,y,n X04; x.
vtype(n,v) W43; vtype(n + 1,u) W43; "free(u,y) W43; isFm(y)W43;
x = exists(u,forall(v,equiv(seq(u) a02; paren(seq(v)),y))) I don't understand the problem
Debate Round No. 3
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"Science is my only good subject endless im playing sports.

yes that explains your objectivity

con says
"this is his formula.

40. reduAxiom(x) V60; W07;u,v,y,n X04; x.
vtype(n,v) W43; vtype(n + 1,u) W43; "free(u,y) W43; isFm(y)W43;
x = exists(u,forall(v,equiv(seq(u) a02; paren(seq(v)),y))) I don't understand the problem"

reduAxiom( that looks like Russel's axiom of reducibility
if it is then Russel dropped it in his 2 ed of PM

Godel used it in his incompetness proof as his axiom 1v and in his formular 40
thus introducing a flaw in his proof because the axiom of reduciblity out laws his self referential G statement th making his proof invalid
see
http://www.scribd.com...

IV. Every formula derived from the schema
1. (W07;u)(v W04; (u(v) X01; a))
on substituting for v or u any variables of types n or n + 1 respectively, and for a a formula which does not contain u free. This axiom represents the axiom of reducibility (the axiom of comprehension of set theory).

"Godel sentence G is outlawed by the very axiom he uses to prove his theorem ie the axiom of reducibiility -thus his proof is invalid-and thus
godel commits a flaw by useing it to prove his theorem

http://www.enotes.com...

russells axiom of reducibility was formed such that impredicative
statements where banned

http://www.scribd.com...

but godels uses this AR axiom in his incompleteness proof ie axiom 1v
and formular 40

and as godel states he is useing the logic of PM ie AR

"P is essentially the system obtained by superimposing on the Peano
axioms the logic of PM" ie AR

now godel constructs an impredicative statement G which AR was meant
to ban

The impredicative statement Godel constructs is
http://en.wikipedia.org...

"the corresponding G"del sentence G asserts: "G cannot be proved to be
true within the theory T""

now godels use of AR bans godels G statement

thus godel cannot then go on to give a proof by useing a statement his
own axiom bans
but by doing so he invalidates his whole proof and his proof/logic is
flawed"
greatbigworld

Con

my Question to you is ' what has he done so wrong' It seems like every scientist is blamed for using things they need.
Debate Round No. 4
shakuntala

Pro

con says
my Question to you is ' what has he done so wrong' It seems like every scientist is blamed for using things they need

there are 4 points which point to 3 things he has done wrong

http://www.scribd.com...

1) Godel TELLS us that he uses the axiom of reducibility from the PM ie 2nd ed

Quote
http://www.mrob.com...
"A. Whitehead and B. Russell, Principia Mathematica, 2nd edition, Cambridge 1925. In particular, we also reckon among the axioms of PM the axiom of infinity (in the form: there exist denumerably many individuals), and the axioms of reducibility and of choice (for all types)" ((K Godel , On formally undecidable propositions of principia mathematica and related systems in The undecidable , M, Davis, Raven Press, 1965, p.5)

yet Russel dropped axiom of reducibility from his 2 nd ed of PM
2) "In the Introduction to the second edition of Principia, Russell repudiated Reducibility as 'clearly not the sort of axiom with which we can rest content'"Russells own system with out reducibility was rendered incapable of achieving its own purpose"

quote page 14
http://www.helsinki.fi....

"Russell gave up the Axiom of Reducibility in the second edition of
Principia (1925)"

mathematicians have said ie Ramsey etc that
3) Such an axiom has no place in mathematics, and anything which cannot be
proved without using it cannot be regarded as proved at all.

This axiom there is no reason to suppose true; and if it were true, this
would be a happy accident and not a logical necessity, for it is not a
tautology. (THE FOUNDATIONS OF MATHEMATICS* (1925) by F. P. RAMSEY

by useing axiom of reducibility in his proof Godel make a logical flaw which invalidates his theorem
4)Godel sentence G is outlawed by the very axiom he uses to prove his theorem ie the axiom of reducibiility -thus his proof is invalid-and thus
godel commits a flaw by useing it to prove his theorem

http://www.enotes.com...

russells axiom of reducibility was formed such that impredicative
statements where banned

http://www.scribd.com...

but godels uses this AR axiom in his incompleteness proof ie axiom 1v
and formular 40

and as godel states he is useing the logic of PM ie AR

"P is essentially the system obtained by superimposing on the Peano
axioms the logic of PM" ie AR

now godel constructs an impredicative statement G which AR was meant
to ban

The impredicative statement Godel constructs is
http://en.wikipedia.org...

"the corresponding G"del sentence G asserts: "G cannot be proved to be
true within the theory T""

now godels use of AR bans godels G statement

thus godel cannot then go on to give a proof by useing a statement his
own axiom bans
but by doing so he invalidates his whole proof and his proof/logic is
flawed

we have a dilemma

DILEMMA
1)
if godel is useing AR then he cannot use G as it is outlawed
thus his proof collapses
2) if godel is not useing AR then he is lying when he tells us he is
and thus his theorem cannot be about PM and related systems
greatbigworld

Con

Why do you keep spacing your stuff out. But that doesn't matter. He tells us he uses this stuff for his experiments. with he does. also g is outlawed so using a different source witch is no problem. like for real. he is using AR its right in one of his formulas. Get me some proof (not the voters) and I will agree even more.
Debate Round No. 5
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