The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

point of fetal pain should be used instead o viability as abortion regulation standard

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/3/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 707 times Debate No: 61242
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

instead of being able to regulate when abortion can occur based on viability, it should be based on when the fetus starts feeling pain. the fact we'd have to use pain killers to kill the fetus shows the inhumanity of what is being done. viability is not a magic spot of when a fetus feels pain, or is suddenly a human, take it back a few moments and it's still a person. why not just take it back to the humane point of fetus pain?
iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con


Thanks to my opponent for offering an interesting debate topic. I wish you luck in the debate and now on to my opening arguments.


Does fetal pain exist?


First and foremost my opponent needs to prove that a fetus actually feels pain. The facts are that this idea of fetal pain perception has been hinted at by some groups, but it is highly controversial and not widely accepted at all.(1) In fact in the review article cited which proposes fetal pain is possible, the authors are even very honest to point out “Unfortunately, no pain scales exist to date for the evaluation of fetal pain. Consequently, there exists no specific tool for rating the pain or to help discriminate between reactions attributable to pain versus due to reactions to causes other than pain.” In fact this review article has to rely on special pleading to argue its point when it concludes by saying “Ultimately, regardless of age, the patient has the right to analgesia and that right should be recognized and guaranteed, even when the need for analgesia cannot be expressed by the patient.


For these reasons pointed out above, I believe that fetal pain has not been medically verified and as such my opponent really needs to prove the concept of fetal pain before she can use it as an argument.


Is the fetus feeling pain?


My opponent probably will argue that fetal pain can be determined from facial expressions or fetuses movements. Its highly important that at this point we stop and ask the question, how do we know these actions are from pain? There is no way to know for sure as the studies that rely on these actions as pain indicators are quick to point out that this is purely subjective and may in fact have nothing to do with pain sensations, see reference 1. In fact more mature developed fetuses which are used in these studies are continuously moving around and/or making facial expressions.(2) As such what could be interpreted as a pain perception could in fact, more realistically, be just an involuntary muscle movement.


How is pain determined?


This argument on pain will probably be the most difficult point to rebut for my opponent. Basically, it is well know that pain is subjective. In fact the pain scale can be influenced by simple things like gender, with women feeling pain more intensely than men.(3) To some anecdotal evidence I broke my foot and felt a little pain, in contrast my brother broke his foot and could not stop complaining about the intense pain. I think cases like this point out the problem with pain perception and what is considered pain.


This is so important that there are in fact journals dedicated to pain and understanding how it affects people in different ways and how different people perceive pain.(4) This means that different fetuses could have different perceptions to pain (if fetal pain is firstly proven) and as such if we cannot quantify this then we are unable to agree with the debates proposition. I should also like to point out the case of Congenital insensitivity to pain.(5) If a fetus has this genetic defect then my opponent is effectively arguing that this fetus, which cannot feel pain, can be aborted the day before a scheduled delivery. While this is an extreme case I think it does an extreme amount of harm to my opponents arguments.


In this round I have shown that fetal pain is something that has not been proven. Additionally, I have shown that pain is subjective. With this, I hand the debate back to my opponent and eagerly await her reply.

(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


(2) http://americanpregnancy.org...


(3) http://www.scientificamerican.com...


(4) http://www.journals.elsevier.com...


(5) http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov...

Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

if you pinch a newborn does it not cry? that proves pain. is it still a human being ten seconds before when it was in the womb? of course. when does pain begin? we can't say for sure, but we have lots of evidences, including the aformentioned fetal movements and the development of neural pathways in the body and brain. at the very least, when these pathways are compelete, which is necessarily before viability where you can pinch that baby, abortion should be outlawed. this establisheses my case.
but it doesn't even give the benefit of the doubt to humanity and being humane, cause pain probably develops slowly before a completed neural pathway, especially if there are pain avoidance mechanisisms looking to occcur. so we should probably go back further to where pain starts to seems to occur while there are nerves that exist at all.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con


It seems that my opponent has engaged none of my arguments in round 2, and as such they remain completely unchallenged. This means my opponent has yet to prove a fetus can feel pain. Additionally, my opponent has yet to address the very serious case of pain subjectivity. In fact my opponent has not even attempted to address the cases of fetuses that have Congenital insensitivity to pain. This means my opponent seems to be fully on board with aborting this type of fetus the day before the expected full term due date.



I am actually shocked that none of these arguments have been addressed as my opponent clearly has to address these points with well sourced information to be able to claim the debate proposition as correct.



My opponents unsubstantiated proof presented for fetal pain are the following claims which I will address one for one.



if you pinch a newborn does it not cry? that proves pain.


A baby is not a fetus. This is an appeal to emotion as well as a false analogy fallacy. It is completely irrelevant to the debate proposition which has to do with fetal pain.



is it still a human being ten seconds before when it was in the womb? of course.


This debate deals with fetal pain, you need to prove fetal pain. As I have pointed out in the previous round the concept of fetal pain is highly controversial and is not widely considered factual.



Again, to say a fetus is a human being with all human being experiences and feelings is a false analogy fallacy. Lest I need to remind my opponent this is a debate on fetal pain as a way to determine when abortions should be able to take place.



when does pain begin? we can't say for sure, but we have lots of evidences,


Essentially, my opponent concedes the debate by admitting that there is no evidence to prove when pain begins. My opponent then goes on to say that the evidence of pain is fetal movement. However, as I have shown in the previous round these movement may have nothing to do with pain. In fact my opponent needs to prove these movements are associated with pain.



so we should probably go back further to where pain starts to seems to occur while there are nerves that exist at all.


Unsupported claim like all the other claims presented so far. If my opponent can prove pain occurs in fetuses and prove when this takes place, then and only then can my opponents can make this claim. However, until that point my opponent has no argument.



At the moment all my opponent has done is commit fallacies, make unsubstantiated claims and conceded the debate.



Lastly, my opponent makes the following completely off topic statements.


abortion should be outlawed. this establisheses my case.


This is not a debate on the legality of abortion. This is a debate on the whether “point of fetal pain should be used instead of viability as abortion regulation standard”



I now hand the debate back to my opponent for their final round argument.



Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

how does con address my pain contentions? because unlike he says, i in fact made pain arguments. i pointed out that a new born obviously feels pain, so by regression, we know that babies just prior to being born feel pain. these are also known as fetuses, in case con forgets. we dont have to go back as far as i argued in outlawing abortions. just becase there nerve receptiors doesnt mean there is pain, as con pointed out. mine was just an argument for deferene to humanity.

but we should at least have a point between nine months and when nerves begin forming. there are for sure time and psychiological markers for when pain can occur.

i refuse to dignificy his 'fetuses that feel no pain' points, as they are mere technicalities and miss the point of the debate. really, his whole 'fetuses don't feel pain until birth' argument borders on idiotic, cause they obviously feel pain just before birth if they feel pain at birth. to pretend otherwise is idiotic. to ask when the line is drawn is the reasonable approach, if only we can get con to engage in that line of reasoning.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con


My opponent has attacked me saying I have not a dressed the debate proposition. Yet, even though this is not a shared burden of proof debate (my opponent shoulders full BOP) I in fact have gone and presented evidence for my position while Pro has made baseless assumptions. None of these assumptions have been backed by up at all. All the voter is meant to do is trust Pro and dismiss all the evidence I have presented which counters every “argument” Pro has presented.



I really have nothing to debate in this final round. There are no arguments to rebut and all my arguments have gone uncontested.



However, I will point out again that saying a baby is equal to a fetus is a false analogy fallacy.(1) I am including a citation here, and I plead Pro to go look at it. So to my opponent, for the final time, we do not know that “babies just prior to being born feel pain.” for two reasons. 1) You need to prove this pain exists and 2) a baby is not a baby until after it is born, before that it is a fetus i.e. a baby is not a fetus. The proposition of this debate has to do with fetal pain. I have presented a rational argument for my position. In contrast you have presented no arguments but relied on the fallacies saying a baby is the same as a fetus.



The facts in this debate are that Pro is arguing something which flies in the face of medical knowledge yet is not willing to back these claims up. Please re-read my round 1 argument and look at the sources. These sources are all saying more or less the same thing, “there is no proof of fetal pain.”



I hand the debate now over to the voters.



(1) http://rationalwiki.org...




Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 2 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
@ Vajrasattva-LeRoy: Very deep (all irony intended), and still have elaborated on nothing. Point proven.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
Stupid Liar.
Posted by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 3 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
@ Vajrasattva-LeRoy: Guessing you did not bother to read anything.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 3 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
Once again, please stop using a thumbs down for Pro.
It means NO.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 3 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
You guys sure like to post LONG, Stupid, Crazy ideas on DDO, don't you?

The answer is, of course, NO.

Deliberately causing the fetus pain to try to determine
whether or not it's viable doesn't make sense.

Hurting a fetus by aborting it is a completely different matter.
A BODY & a BEING are 2 different things.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 3 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
dairygirl4u2ciamanatheistandthisiswhyTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: S&G - Con. Pro continuously fails to capitalize words. I've personally warned Pro of this in the past. With Con making nothing close to the amount of mistakes made by Pro - these points go to Con. Arguments - Con. I didn't see one proven claim from Pro's arguments. Without proof to uphold the validity of claims, as well as failing to properly address Con's arguments and rebuttals, I award these points to Con. Sources - Con. Pro failed to utilize sourcing throughout this debate to strengthen points, whereas Con did. Due to Con sharing sources to provide further proof of his claims, I award these points to Con. This is a clear win for Con.
Vote Placed by Envisage 3 years ago
Envisage
dairygirl4u2ciamanatheistandthisiswhyTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro might have had a decent point if she argued that late stage Cetus pain does exist and provided evidence for it, but ended up making bare assertion fallacies all over the place. Neither debaters really addressed the resolution so I am forced to vote on the pain arguments. Why should we use pain as an aboration standard? Pro never argued why, and hence fails BoP too... Terrible spelling and no sources.