The Instigator
krazzybrandon
Pro (for)
Losing
14 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Con (against)
Winning
102 Points

prayer should be in schools

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 17 votes the winner is...
Kleptin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,415 times Debate No: 7623
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (15)
Votes (17)

 

krazzybrandon

Pro

prayer should be allowed in schools... because young kids need to get on the right track in their dicipline and i think preyer should be made leagal every where.... now shoot that down
Kleptin

Con

Thank you to my opponent for setting forth this challenge.

I shall be arguing against my opponent's assertion that prayer should be made legal in schools.

I will first start by stating that since prayer is legal in schools, as well as everywhere else, my opponent must be talking about either mandatory prayer, or public/group prayer organized by schools.

My opponent's only point is that prayer leads kids down the right track of discipline. I disagree with this notion because I believe prayer does nothing to improve a child's discipline.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Discipline is essentially the molding of moral character, conduct, and obedience. I believe that praying does none of these. Discipline would theoretically arise from reading scripture and following God's law, not necessarily from communication with God.

In addition, there are many ways to ensure discipline in young children. I myself was beaten every time I did something wrong, like break a dish or get less than an A on an exam. I was also beaten when I disrespected my elders, acted out, or rebelled. Beatings are a very effective disciplinary tool. One that works both at home and at school.

Another way would be to reward children when they do something positive, to encourage good behavior. To teach them the virtue of patience, for example, you could tell them that if they were good and did not ask for anything for one month, you would give them a coveted video game or toy. God is not always this predictable, and to mimic this exercise with prayer might make a child frustrated.

I look forward to my opponent's response. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
krazzybrandon

Pro

I would like to state that my apponet whole rebudle was about pray dosnt lead students down the wrong path. That should be irrelevant because it not a provent fact.

Also schools in texas, cannot have prayer. So him saying that is also irrelevant. At no given time could a student recite a prayer out load.

So I like to stand and affirm that prayer should be in schools. Because people have freedom of religion and should be able to pray if the desire.

Please vote for the affirmative
Kleptin

Con

I thank my opponent for his response and will now respond.

"I would like to state that my apponet whole rebudle was about pray dosnt lead students down the wrong path. That should be irrelevant because it not a provent fact."

In debate, there is a term entitled "burden of proof". The one who makes the positive statement must prove it before he uses it as evidence. My opponent was the one basing his argument solely on the concept that prayer and discipline are exclusively linked. I countered by offering examples as to how discipline may not necessarily rely completely on prayer.

My opponent has failed to counter my points. My opponent has failed to make a case for himself. Thus, his argument falls because his only premise is rendered completely useless.

"Also schools in texas, cannot have prayer. So him saying that is also irrelevant. At no given time could a student recite a prayer out load."

My opponent is half right and half wrong. First of all, students are allowed to engage in silent, nondisruptive prayer at any moment of the day

http://law.findlaw.com...

What exactly is the purpose of disruptive prayer? A prayer is communication between you and God, no one else. Spoken prayer does not give more discipline than silent prayer, my opponent is simply making up random arguments and hurling them out in the hopes that one will make sense.

"Because people have freedom of religion and should be able to pray if the desire."

First, I repeat that students have the right to silently pray. And as for the rest of this argument, the concept of the slippery slope applies. If one can pray out loud by freedom of religion, why can one not SHOUT his prayer? Or perhaps, use a megaphone to amplify the prayer? If one can pray to the Christian God, why not shout Muslim prayers? Or Hindu prayers? Or prayers to the Chinese folk Gods? Or the Greek Gods?

That would be fine, but very noisy. Thus, the best option is to respect everyone's religious beliefs and keep prayer private.

Since my opponent has failed to make a case, I urge a Con vote.

Thank you to my opponent, and to the audience.
Debate Round No. 2
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Common_Sense_Please 7 years ago
Common_Sense_Please
I had to pray 3 times a day at my primary school..It was a total waste of time that could have been spent, well I don't know... teaching me maybe?
Posted by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
Teachers do have an extraordinary influence over students, and at all levels both teachers and textbooks are heavily biased in favor of leftist viewpoints. It doesn't have much impact on technology courses, by it is omnipresent in the liberal arts. It's not realistic to suppose that students are supposed to educate themselves outside of school to a level high enough to overcome bias in the school curriculum. The purpose of school is supposed to be to educate students fairly, not to provide intellectual obstacles for students to overcome.

Years ago one of my engineering colleagues told me his grade-school son asked him if there was gravity in outer space. The engineer told his son, "There is gravity, but in orbit it is countered by centrifugal force." A few days later, the kid's teacher said there was no gravity in space, settling the matter and proving that Dad knew nothing. Teachers get a mantle of authority.
Posted by s0m31john 7 years ago
s0m31john
If a person is so susceptible to bias that their opinions can be changed by a few rouge teachers in some core classes then the problem is the students, not the entire system. Since these students in question are already so open to a change in their views what's to stop them from getting their bias from other sources like co-workers. The benefits of having a college education in a specific field far out weigh the loss of a few stupid kids who can't stick to their guns and reason out their own opinions.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"How would say a Computer Science or Japanese major's education seriously get affected by the EVIL LIBRULS DERP DERP? "
First, there's the core classes.

Second, net neutrality, and indoctrination in japan's police-state culture :)
Posted by s0m31john 7 years ago
s0m31john
Protip: Not everyone goes to college to major in politics. How would say a Computer Science or Japanese major's education seriously get affected by the EVIL LIBRULS DERP DERP? Also, Ron Paul's largest amount of supporters were college students, and Ron Paul is anything but an EVIL LIBRUL.
Posted by sadolite 7 years ago
sadolite
"Are their really people who do not understand that prayer in school is legal everywhere in the U.S.?' Ahh ya the entire public school system and all of it's teachers and employees. Children's rights are constantly being violated by the scum sucking public school system. They have to go to court all the time to make these idiots in the public school system understand this. It is a complete waste of tax payers money because the teachers are suppose to know this, so much for higher education meaning anything> higher education just means liberal, secular indoctrination. A man who works the grave yard shift at a 7-11 has more introspect about life and political view points in America than all of the supposed greatest thinkers in the top ivy league colleges put together. One can't have introspect when the entire education system is comprised of people who all have the same political view point and ideology same goes for the news media. They have no frame of reference, any other opinion is just stupid and ignorent. Thier opinion and ideology is the only one and that is it period.
Posted by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
Are their really people who do not understand that prayer in school is legal everywhere in the U.S.? Students can pray any time they get the chance. What is illegal is government-organized prayer.

Con made the right arguments. Pro was often incoherent.
Posted by TheSkeptic 7 years ago
TheSkeptic
"I will first start by stating that since prayer is legal in schools, as well as everywhere else, my opponent must be talking about either mandatory prayer, or public/group prayer organized by schools."

CON argued against mandatory prayer. Of course a non-believer would respect the freedom of religion. It's what is currently keeping us safe from Kentucky and Tennessee ;D
Posted by grayron 7 years ago
grayron
The best argument is freedom of speech and religion to allow prayer in school. It isn't a big deal to allow kids to express their religion. Although I have to admit that the con side was way better only because the pro side was pathetic. I also am confused weither or not if this is a debate about allowing prayer in school or forcing prayer in school. Those are two different debates entirely.
Posted by TheSkeptic 7 years ago
TheSkeptic
@sadolite:

The "macho conservative" stance may seem intimidating or perhaps "cool", but it's so inextricably filled with errors I don't know where to start. First, it doesn't matter that Ivy League schools were founded by Christians, and that their original intent was to teach and pass along Christianity. Meanings and traditions CHANGE over time, that is the nature of society. Ideas progress, usually for the better.

Children should be allowed to pray in school, but they shouldn't be allowed to disrupt others. Don't most schools have a rule against shouting in class or being a rowdy kid? The same thing applies with religion.

You fail to realize that the Constitution and the original intent of the Founding Fathers, whom you conservatives love to glorify, intended for the structure of America to be based on COMPROMISE and the assurance that people will always follow their self-interest. So please, don't go smack-talking about "liberal secularism".

Concerning this debate, all points to Kleptin. It should be quite obvious why.
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