predestination or free will
Debate Rounds (5)
I will prove biblically and logically that all humans are not under predestination. I will also provide solid proof that humans do have free will, and a conscience. If I can prove that humans have free will and a conscience, and can tackle the claims of predestination then pro should win this debate. Also between my opponent and I it should be agreed upon that our only sources should be the bible because it is the only trustworthy evidence in religious disputes
1. predestination-the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation......http://dictionary.reference.com...
2. freewill- made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary:........http://dictionary.reference.com...
I first provide scriptural grounds and rebuttal my opponents claim and explain why we have free will and that we are not predestined by birth. Then I will move on to logic.
NWTOHS-New World Translation Of the holy scriptures.
Now I'm not sure what bible my opponent is using but please accept the scripture that mines provides over my opponents. Since my bible is translated from the original words on all texts.
Romans 8; 28-30...."Now we know that god makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love god, those who are ones called upon according to his purpose, Because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his son, that he might be the first born among many brothers. Moreover, those whom he foreordained are he ones he also called; and those whom he called are also declared righteous. finally those whom he declared righteous he glorified."
Let me first make it clear that what this verse is talking about is completely different than what my opponents proposal is suggesting. Of course god is omnipotent and can do anything and has the power to do what he wants. My opponents stand is that we are all predestined the life we have and choices we make by god. I am here to tell you that this is completely false The fact that we have free will contradicts that statement but I will talk about that later.
Romans 8 28-30
What this verse is saying is basically, those who god first recognized(those at the last supper with Jesus) those who were first saved by Jesus at the last supper, at that point and no point before that, they were then saved and declared righteous. We all know the first people saved by Jesus were his followers at the last supper. These were the first recognized that this verse is speaking of. So god didn't foreordain these particular ones to saved. But after they were saved he obviously foresaw them being cleansed of there sins. There is a big difference here......God didn't predetermine there entire life and all there decisions. What this verse clearly shows is that after these people made certain choices of there free will, in result they were saved and god foreordained them after that particular point to be declared righteous. So this clearly shows a cause and effect relationship. This also shows tat god has the power of predestination. But that doesn't mean that god used this power on us from birth. Were not robots were humans.
Just think about it. Why did Jesus need to be sacrificed for our sins. because humans were rebelling against him. Perfect example being Adam and eve and then the great flood. If god constantly used his power predestination. Then why would god waste the life of his only son? If god knew before hand that humans would rebel against him then why did he create us in the first place? Fact of the matter is god didn't create us all to be good and to follow him like robots. If that was the case then the world would be peaceful and there would be no evil. But god created us with free will. There is no other logical explanation for the presence of disobedience and why people don't believe in god.....If we all followed god because we were made to follow god threw predestination,then our loyalty wouldn't have came from the heart. Or be sincere. So god created us with free will so that our loyalty would be sincere and because we want to follow god. God didn't want artificial robot love, but instead he wanted us to worship him by choice. He gave us the choice of accepting him So that our worship would be willingfull.
So in the point of these paragraphs is that god may have the power of predestination. but this isn't used on humans from birth. This is extremely evident in the case of Adam and eve. If god predestined Adam and eve to be good forever and follow his commands then they wouldn't have sinned. If god had known this he wouldn't have created them. Thus the only conclusion to make is that god gave all humans free will.( it could also be said that he didn't look into the future before the Adam and eve incident. Reason being is that he may have wanted human decisions to play out, if god would have looked into the future on this then I would have never happened.)
Humans have free will evident by the choices we make
So first a scripture.......Romans 2; 15
"They are the very one who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused."
So this scripture obviously establishes the presence of free will and proves that it is used by all humans. Having a conscience is having the free will to do what one decides. As I've proven earlier humans lives, choices, and way of life are a choice that we all have the free will to decide. We are not predestined to make the choices we make or the right ones. Evident by the existence of Satan. Evil was never present until he came into the equation. he was once a angel. But he felt god didn't deserve to be sovereign and felt he should be worshipped over god. If god knew this then why would he have created Satan? God didn't predestinate Satan to be evil. Satan had free will just like the rest of the angels and humans. He had the free will to make his decisions..........Jeremiah 17:9......." The heart is more treacherous than anything else, and is desperate. Who can know it?"........this proves that we have free will. We have the ability to ruin our lives or to have a chaste life.( not that I'm all goodie too shoes, just saying...lol)
We arnt foreordained to salvation
1.salvation- preservation or deliverance from danger or destruction.
-New world translation of the holy scriptures.
acts 16;30-"men, what must I do to be saved? And they said, "Believe in the lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
If he was already predestined to be saved why would he be asking for the choice to be saved. He had the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or to not believe and to not be saved. This proves the existence of free will and the presence of choices we make everyday.
Philippians 2:12 " as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work our your own salvation with fear and trembling."
This shows that salvation has to be obtained by working for it. So obviously we arnt predestined to salvation or damnation.
Matthew 7:13- " Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, That leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
So in life you can take the easy way and be led to destruction. Or you can take the hard, right way and e a great life.
That life meaning salvation. So salvation is obtained threw free will. Not by birth.
So in my case I have proven the existence of free will,Distinguished salvation from predestination, and have adequately rebutted the claims of humans being predestined all the action we take.
1. if Adam and eve were predestined to sin, then why was god disappointed when e found out? If he already predestined it then why did he show emotion?
2. If we are predestined to salvation then why does the bible exist? IS not the bible instruction to salvation?
3. If Satan was predestined to be evil, then why didn't god get rid of him? Why did he create him in the first place?
4. If humans don't have free will then how do you explain choosing to commit suicide? If god doesn't like us killing ourself then why do we have the ability to kill ourselves? Couldn't he just remove the thought from ever existing?
christfollowertilthend forfeited this round.
Well since my opponent forfeited, All of my arguments are confirmed without resistance. I stated earlier the terms for witch I should win this debate with this statement witch is....."If I can prove that humans have free will and a conscience, and can tackle the claims of predestination then pro should win this debate"
I have effectively done so while proving these points.....Humans have free will evident by the choices we make, and We arnt foreordained to salvation.
1..Romans 2; 15
christfollowertilthend forfeited this round.
christfollowertilthend forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
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