The Instigator
linate
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
blackkid
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

prolife folks should agree, abortionist tiller should have been shot

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
blackkid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/19/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 360 times Debate No: 61981
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

linate

Pro

HE DID THEM ILLEGALLY... (and carhart does too
.
http://www.christianpost.com............
Operation Rescue ran its own investigation and released reports of former patients who testified that the Women's Health Care Services in Wichita " where Carhart was employed at the time " falsified the gestational age of viable babies to avoid complying with the law and performed illegal abortions. Kansas law prohibits abortion when the fetus is viable unless the mother's life in danger.

and

Quote

Luhra (Tivis) Warren, a former Tiller employee, wrote the following:

"I was required to falsify the medical records. But not just that, related to that, I was required to lie to the women over the phone. And the way he'd explain it to me was, without coming right out and saying it, these are really third trimester abortions, but we're going to tell them they're only in the second trimester. They would say, well, I've already had a sonogram, and my bpd was 7.8 or 8.3 or whatever. He said, when they tell you that, don't turn them away as being too far along. Tell them to come in, and we'll do our own sonogram, and it will show they're not that far along. Tell them that sonogram reading is an art, not a science. He explained to me that the bpd is a measurement of the angle of the baby's head, where at that angle, the baby's head is roughly egg-shaped. The usual way that you measure the bpd is from the top of the egg to the bottom of the egg, which is at the widest point. But we measure it from side to side, at the narrowest point." from Celebrate Life Sept/Oct 1994 "Where is the Real Violence?"

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HE DID THEM FOR TRIVIAL REASONS

'late term abortion, cause the mom says she had too many kids'

Quote

"Jessica speaks out"
we decided having 2 babies under 1 year old was not going to work for us with [5] children total, so after thinking about it we decided upon an abortion though it was painful to think about.
I was I believe 26 weeks along which is pretty far in my book, but anyway.
First day was taking blood, sonogram to see exactly how far along I was, etc... which they wouldn't let me see the sonogram photo when I asked.

I can remember Tiller half-delivering my baby, jabbing the scissors into his head, & killing him. Then just kind of throwing him to the side and finishing up.

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he did them late term for trivial reaSONS...
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Quote

[Tiller gave out a video called] "Philosophies and techniques of late term abortion services at Women's Health Care Services". In this video, Tiller talks openly about the reasons women come to Wichita for late-term abortion which include "occupational issues" and "financial issues".

Quote

Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons. One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert. Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007.

https://www.youtube.com............
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political and legal process werent working....
CLOSING CLINICS SAVES LIVES

We know from experience that closing abortion clinics saves lives. In 2006, Operation Rescue bought and closed Central WomenA533;s Services, an abortion clinic in Wichita, Kansas. On the day we took possession of the building, we were able to speak with one woman who came for an abortion, but chose instead to keep her baby. The building was completely renovated and now serves as Operation RescueA533;s national headquarters.

Over the ensuing months, many women have come to our offices seeking abortions. We have referred them to a pro-life pregnancy center next door where the director tells us that every woman who has come to them seeking an abortion at our former abortion building has instead made the decision to chose life for their babies.

Since the closure of WomenA533;s Health Care Services in June, 2009, Wichita has become an abortion-free community. That same pregnancy center reports a dramatic increase in business and in requests for adoption information. Since abortions are not available in Wichita, more and more women who would have resorted to abortion as a quick solution to their problems have instead sought the help and support they needed to cope with their crisis pregnancies in ways that did not include the intentional death of their babies.

Study weighs threats' effects on abortion providers
BY DAVID GOLDSTEIN
Washington correspondent

WASHINGTON A533; An abortion rights group has found that doctors and clinics in six states, including Missouri, that perform abortions "are routinely targeted" for legal and physical harassment, including death threats.

The result, according to a study by the Center for Reproductive Rights A533; an international legal advocacy group A533; is that women seeking to terminate pregnancies face a dwindling supply of providers as threats and intimidation take their toll.
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HIS DEATH WAS JUSTIFIABLE PHILOSOPHICALLY

we have just war theory, and defense of others if death is imenent. i think just war applies. otherwise we have defense of others.... while noy literally immeint who cares? we donty have to be just whatever orhodoxy says. its the point that matters. desperate times desperate measures.... defense of others but not truly immenient, a death will soon occur. understood not normative law or ethics.... but bottomline, if u are gonna kill us very likely etc... u should die. otherwise wed just be sticking to tradiotion of whats been allowed and overlooking the point involved, and not be a little more unorthodox.

bottomline... what if they were killing two year olds and it was generally legal? not only that what if it was illegal at times and efftive to shoot the few two year old killers? poltics and law werent working.... what is the moral thing to do?

(also, the prolife building next to tiller had very high success preventing abortion when getting a chance to talk to the women. before and after tiller was shut down. why didnt tiller refer them there first at least as a suggestion etc? it follows that he cared more about money, why else wouldnt he do things to help reduce abortion
================================
common objections
mother's life endangered. exceptions for that and should be. isnt trivial reason. dont know why you point it out. all u have left is body soverignty to justify the abortion. but as said, she had plenty of time to abort earlier when more morally gray, and she is responsible for the conception so she does not have absolute right here.

society cant do this? civil war, revolutions, defending others etc... killing is sometimes necessary.
address the two year old hypothetical. almost everyone would agree that should be a moral necessity to defend them. the only distinction you could make is body soverignty arguments. but if u do make this argument.... how is it not her responsibility that the child was conceived so not her absolute right (even the law recognizes no absolute right), and how not her fault she did not abort sooner when morally grayer?

i could see if he did them for trivial reasons at a point where it's legal, and for nontrivial when it's illegal. the only thing that is not trivial and not the mom's life, is a deformed baby. i could understand if that was the reason he did them, i may need more information.... it sounds like he was not this scrupulous.
we see aborted at 26 weeks for too many kids. far as i can tell, that's illegal or pushin it. no expert
blackkid

Con

[HIS DEATH WAS JUSTIFIABLE PHILOSOPHICALLY

we have just war theory, and defense of others if death is imminent. i think just war applies. otherwise we have defense of others.... while not literally imminent who cares? we donty have to be just whatever orhodoxy says. its the point that matters. desperate times desperate measures.... defense of others but not truly immenient, a death will soon occur. understood not normative law or ethics.... but bottomline, if u are gonna kill us very likely etc... u should die. otherwise wed just be sticking to tradiotion of whats been allowed and overlooking the point involved, and not be a little more unorthodox.

bottomline... what if they were killing two year olds and it was generally legal? not only that what if it was illegal at times and efftive to shoot the few two year old killers? poltics and law werent working.... what is the moral thing to do?

(also, the prolife building next to tiller had very high success preventing abortion when getting a chance to talk to the women. before and after tiller was shut down. why didnt tiller refer them there first at least as a suggestion etc? it follows that he cared more about money, why else wouldnt he do things to help reduce abortion]

"we have just war theory, and defense of others if death is imminent. i think just war applies.", how?

" otherwise we have defense of others.... while not literally imminent who cares?", you just invalidated this argument.

While this is actually an appeal to emotion and I really shouldn't have taken this I'm curious as to what would drive you to use this number of red herrings and unsupported and really unsolicited information to try and justify murder. Your evidence is weak at best and while a person's viewpoints on something should effect their worldview it would be less than sensible if not almost outright dangerous for "Prolifers" to decide that murder of doctors is justifiable.

Dr. Tiller did his job. ( http://www.nytimes.com... ) he was acquitted (meaning not legally held to) any illegal abortions. The claim that they were illegal is false. Your link doesn't go to a direct article that would support these claims. I don't know if that's an error or not. While the sources are biased throughout I am still more concerned with the justification of murder for a man who did not break the law according to historical contexts.
Debate Round No. 1
linate

Pro

con mostly just questions the validity of my sources that he did them illegally. it's a reasonable question, but all you've done is offer speculation on what looks like credible information. the sources are a bit bias, but that doesn't mean the information if false. when a court acquits someone that doesnt mean they are innocent, it just means for the purposes of the law, they are held to be presumed that way. the evidence could have not been included for all kinds of reasons, maybe the employee didn't testify and it was deemed heresay and not included. or maybe there was a doctor patient privilege that kept the information out of court. i've given at least presumably credible information, so con should have more of a duty to rebut it than just 'it looks bias'.
blackkid

Con

"Your link doesn't go to a direct article that would support these claims.", this is your problem. You have anecdotal evidence which is fine but the claims of guilt are not actually falsifiable and half of the "quotes" aren't cited. That aside none of this justifies murder. You also failed to explain how Just War theory could apply at all. There is no rational reason (thus far) that I can see a pro-life person should go forth and support the murder of doctors who perform abortions, legally or otherwise, since the two are not directly linked. This is akin to a member of PeTA murdering a fashion designer who uses fur in their wear.
Debate Round No. 2
linate

Pro

you didn't address the two year old hypothetical. what if they were killing two year olds. and sometimes it was illegal. and it was effective to shoot the few two year old killers from when it was illegal. at the point of development that the babies were, there's no difference.
blackkid

Con

You've not told me why Pro-life person's should be murderous and as this is the final round even if I did answer for your hypothetical because you can't respond I find that it would be unfair to you. So instead I will close by simply stating that you did not satisfy your own assertion and that you ended your argumentation with, instead of a closing argument, a question.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by blackkid 2 years ago
blackkid
I hope you win!
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Tiller was shot in a church. The first thing I thought of what kind of church is this that would not have shunned this man? my next thought was, he sure know the truth now. But the truth will not set him free.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
linateblackkidTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: pro made mere assertions that weren't really backed up.