The Instigator
Pro (for)
The Contender
Con (against)

proof god is not real..

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Debate Round Forfeited
lannan13 has forfeited round #3.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/13/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 261 times Debate No: 96113
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
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anything that is created or constructed is a machine, and life is nature, the human body is nature


Kalam Cosmological Argument

The Kalam Cosmological Argument (which I'll start refurring to as the KCA in order to save space) was created by William Lane Craig and is a simple theory that I have bellow.

(1) Everything that began to exist had a cause
(2) The universe began to exist
(3) The universe had a cause
(4) If the universe had a cause, that cause is God
(5) Therefore, God exists [1]

The 1st premise is true by the very laws a physics as it is a law of Conservation of Mass it shows that Matter can't be neither created nor destroyed. Meaning the Universe couldn't have been spontanously created as Big Bang opponent Flyod has stated. These things are not spontanous here. Like why doesn't the Earth suddenly expload? This is because the laws of Physics binds and restrics nothingness so we can see that for one to question the first premise would be to question regualrity.

Moving on to the second premise here which is backed both by scientce and philosophy. Craig agrues the Brode-Gruth-Velikum Theory through the use of Red shift which shows that the universe is exspanding we can actually see that the universe, even if it is part of some multi-verse, still had to be created. [2] The philosophical side of this argument is though many argue that the universe may be infinate the thing is highly unlikely for things to exsist in an infinate chain and are thus had to have a starting finite point somwhere. Even if we look at Tyson's theory on how this universe started and that it is a multiverse we can still see that the universe, this one, had a beginning.

For the 4th Premise I will argue Monistic Idealism. Since it had a cause, the cause was transcendent meaning it was timeless and spaceless. Only minds are from this sphere and if I can prove that God is a Mind/sphere then I win the debate.

Monistic idealism.

P1 Mind is mental
P2 Nothing mental can interact with what is non-mental
C1 Nothing mind interacts with is non-mental
P3 Mind interacts with reality
C2 Reality is mental

P1: Mind is mental.

P1: IF mind is matter, THEN solipsism is impossible (exists in no possible worlds).
P2: Solipsism is possible (does exist in some possible world).
C: Mind is not matter.

Metaphysical Solipsism shows that all exists within our own minds. Though we may think there is a world out there it is all actually in our minds. [3] Thus a world has to exist within our own minds and there are several reasons why this is completely true. It makes perfect sense since it isn't prima facie impossible and thus must be accepted as a solid fact, not to mention that it is perfectably reasonable and a sound argement. If we can see that the mind was matter, then it would be impossible to exist appart from matter itself. Things that are Metaphysically impossible are not even imaginable. Can you imagine a Square Hexigon? No, such a thing is perposterous. We can thus see that Metaphysical solipsism is consitstant with Metaphysically possible. Here we have to apply the Indentity of Indiscernibles.

F(FxFy) → x=y.

This is reflected by showing these things are distinguished by some differential, but in the case of, let's say clones for the sake of arguing, is just a replication of it's own molecules. This is centered on the basis that all things have an individualistic characteristic and in the case of God it is the existance of it's own mind and it's consciencousness that shows this. I shall give an example bellow.

There are 3 Sphere, Sphere A, B, and C
Each have the same qualities.
Each of these Spheres exist in world 1.
Sphere A exists in World 2, but Sphere B and C cannot due to their likeness characteristics. [4]

We can see that this is a logically coherrant case and thus is sound. We can also see that due to the theory of Truely Large Numbers that there is a great chance that this world is that of a Solipsism one as many studies have shown. (but that's for another debate)

P2: Seperate Substances cannot interact

Substance Dualism
This is best cleverly sumed up by the phrase "Mind over Matter" where they argue that there's escentially two distinct things: Mind and Matter. [5] Though the key question here is if the mind is seperate from matter than how does the mind and the brain interact? In order for the consciousness and matter to interact there would have to be some sort of interaction. (See image bellow) The trap here is that since there is a linkage here we can see that there cannot be two seperate things since they would have to be interlinked. Thus the theory here is false.

Property Dualism
So you may concede to the above dualism, but then you might say, alrighty, if that is true then the mind must be a property of the brain. Though if this was true then it would lead to epiphenomenalism and that there would be no free will since everything that we do would have been created by some reaction in the Physical aspect.

This leads to an interesting contradiction of itself. Say I weigh 180 lbs (not my actual weight, but it's an example), the property of me would be 180 lbs. Now tell me, have you ever gone outside or to the zoo and seen 180lbs? No something that weighs that, but the 180 lbs by itself? Thus we can blatently see that it is an abstract that exists only as a property. It can only exist as a property of something else.

If we remember my Solipsism argument from earlier we can see the mind can exist by itself and thus it cannot be a property like the 180 lbs as the mind isn't a property thus it wouldn't be consevable much like the 180 lbs.

P3: Mind interacts with reality.

This almost seems like it's the most obvious here I get hit in the head with a foul ball at a baseball game. Outside of the fact that I would probably have been KO'd we can see that the mind affects what I feel. I would feel a massive amount of pain and if it was great enough then I would lose consciousness and the mind would go dormant to protect itself and me as a person.

Thus the reality is mental and God has no choice but to exist.

1. (
2. Craig, William Lane; Moreland, J. P. (2009). The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. Oxford: John Wiley and Sons.
3. (
4. Weatherson, B., 2008, "Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Properties", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2008 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.)
5. (
Debate Round No. 1


you know.. interesting subjects, but you are con on my argument.. are you trying to demonstrate that machines are nature because nature is created? where does that leave chaos btw

i can be con on your stuff if you like.. but if you think you have some case for a contradiction of my argument point it out pls


My opponent's argument that he originally brings up is actually an argument for the existance of God. I have shown in my last round and even my opponent has conceded to the link. Pro has yet to show why this shows that God is not real while I have shown that God created the universe and if Pro interperates that as God being a machine, then my argument is that of one which shows God is real and even my opponent's argument is an argument that God exists by itself.
Debate Round No. 2


so point that out thanks
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lannan13 4 months ago
Forfeited? What? I had like half an hour left WTF?
Posted by debate0101 4 months ago
<b>"Weight" is an abstract value to our visible sensors alone. But through comparitive reasoning, the eyes and our brain can work collaboratively that can turn an initially abstract value into a real value that help us in the reality of our everyday lives....

Such as..."Hey, don't get on that bike made for children because you're too heavy" or "I can do more pullups than you because you look twice as heavier than I am".

"Perception" alone should never be used as a tool to determine our facts of reality. Otherwise, you'll never get the facts.
Posted by debate0101 4 months ago
The example of spheres makes an unreasonable assumption.

Assuming World 1 is our reality, Sphere A, Sphere B, and Sphere C were all said to exist in World 1. Then it is said that Sphere A also exists in World 2, while Sphere B and C cannot.

The problem with this exercise of Spheres and Worlds is that none of these variable objects have been substantiated as subjects that exist in reality.

Was World 2 proven as another environment that exists in reality or was it invented in one's mind? If World 2 is just a figment of one's imagination, then it should be revealed in that Sphere A does not exist in reality. Only Sphere B and C exist in reality. World 2, World 3, World 4, etc...that are invented in the human mind Do Not Count as real Worlds that exist in reality unless they can be proven to exist in reality.

Such Sphere+World exercise is clearly flawed.
Posted by vi_spex 4 months ago
for another debate sure.. so far he has forfitted
Posted by Sciguy 4 months ago
Go Con, the only man with an sufficient argument in this debate.
Posted by vi_spex 4 months ago
bottom line is, if my argument stands untouched i won no matter how much of your stuff i dont disprove, because surely you dont have proof of god, like i have proof god is not real
Posted by vi_spex 4 months ago
you guys just dont understand how to argue, i have no need to raise my shield if i am not being attacked
Posted by lannan13 4 months ago
vi_spex is more intellegent then he leads others to believe. I'm more humored that he's kept Kayfade for so long.
Posted by vi_spex 4 months ago
noob talk, funny
Posted by vi_spex 4 months ago
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