The Instigator
twin
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
BellumQuodPacis
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

racism today is based largely on steryotypes created by the victims of said racism

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
BellumQuodPacis
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/6/2010 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 11,623 times Debate No: 11649
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (14)
Votes (2)

 

twin

Pro

i support the topic statement, as i believe most racism is a direct result of the steryotypes created by the victims of said racism...first i will define some terms
1.steryotype - Stereotypes are generalizations about a group of people whereby we attribute a defined set of characteristics to this group
2.racism - the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
from these definitions, it is clear how steryotypes can effect racist beliefs, and i wish my opponent luck in this debate whom ever that may be...
BellumQuodPacis

Con

Greetings. It is a pleasure that I accept this debate and wish my opponent the best of luck during this debate. Keeping in mind of the controversiality of this topic, just as pre-note, anything offensive that my argument may contain to some do not reflect my ACTUAL views. I don't mean I'm going to bash races in my argument, it's just that some people take offense if racism is okay to you.

Moving on, I would first like to begin with some small pre-argumentation to support my case.

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Contention 1 - Stereotypes do not have anything to do with current racism
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This is actually simple logic if you put your mind to it. As a definition, my opponent states that stereotypes "are generalizations about a group of people whereby we attribute a defined set of characteristics to this group". I agree, however, more times than others these generalizations are positive, so how exactly will positive steretypes cause racism as opposed to bad ones?

Second, stereotypes do not fuel racism alone. The fact of the matter is, that although stereotypes may seem to be a bad thing, it is really a personal hatrid that causes racism. For instance, upon the founding of the KKK, a religious extremist group turned racist faction, the KKK believed that blacks were inferior. However, that was not really the case. At that time, many people signed up for the KKK with a personal hatrid for them, not because they heard they were inferior "through the grapevine". Therefore, it is quite evident that it is not JUST stereotypes that cause racism. Unless my opponent can prove otherwise, then my argument stands strong.

For the moment, I will allow my opponent to start their argumentation and refute if wanted and will elaborate more in my next arguement.

I thank you for your time, please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 1
twin

Pro

thank you for joining this debate, hopefully it will turn out good, i'm new to this so yeah...
anyway, my opponent contends that stereotypes have nothing to do with current racism, and i obviously disagree. for example, a modern day stereotype of african americans is that they are criminals in some way, shape, or form. this is because, in large part, there are more african americans in american jails today than any other race, my statistics provided by wikipedia:
"The racial composition of the US population as of 2008 was 79.79% White American (65.60% non-Hispanic and 14.19% Hispanic), 12.84% African American (12.22% non-Hispanic and 0.62% Hispanic), 4.45% Asian American (4.35% non-Hispanic and 0.10% Hispanic), 1.01% American Indian or Alaska Native (0.76% non-Hispanic and 0.25% Hispanic), 0.18% Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander American (0.14% non-Hispanic and 0.04% Hispanic), and 1.69% Multiracial American (1.64% non-Hispanic and 0.05% Hispanic). 15.25% of the total US population identified their ethnicity as Hispanic." and the prison populations racial statistics "The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of 2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian, Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander American, and Multiracial American)."
as you can see, this would provide a negative stereotype associated with the african american community, and it would show that in some way, shape, or form blacks are being arrested, and since it is the choices people make that get them arrested, one can inference that blacks have created this stereotype themselves. this stereotype then serves as fuel to the racism of today by giving other races a negative view of african americans as criminals, and it was in effect caused by the choices that were made by the african americans in jail.
also, i agree that stereotypes do not fuel racism all on their own, but i never said they did. in fact, i stated that stereotypes created by the victims of today's racism caused the racism directed at them.
finally, i would like to mention that i literally meant the racism of today, as in from the end of the civil rights movement onward, so as not to confuse my opponent in any way.
BellumQuodPacis

Con

I thank my opponent for responding in a timely manner and wish him the best of luck.

Refutations coming up.

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Refutation
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"thank you for joining this debate, hopefully it will turn out good, i'm new to this so yeah..."

Welcome. Please don't find this offensive or anyhting, and hopefully the voters won't count off for this, but you seriously need to work on punctuation and grammer. Just for having the best can give 1 or 2 points. Just a tip. :D

Now back to business.

Refutation: "anyway, my opponent contends that stereotypes have nothing to do with current racism, and i obviously disagree. for example, a modern day stereotype of african americans is that they are criminals in some way, shape, or form. "

Incorrect. You are just furthering my case. It is not a stereotype that gives EVERYONE the impression of a certain race being a certain characteristic but, as I said, the personal hatrid that one feels. As a matter of fact, most comedians make livings off of stereotypes by using them in stand-up bits. I don't believe anyone has assassinated a comdian because they were too "racist".

Refutation: Source A - Wikipedia Population Statistic

This proves absolutely nothing. Just because you showed a population of jails in the US, you are in no way proving how "racism today is based largely on steryotypes created by the victims of said racism".

Refutation: "also, i agree that stereotypes do not fuel racism all on their own, but i never said they did. in fact, i stated that stereotypes created by the victims of today's racism caused the racism directed at them."

I would like to point out you still have not made ONE argument about the literal resolution giving me nothing to refute but start a case. As the CON, all I have to do is disprove your resolution which is "Racism today is based largely on stereotypes that are created by victims of racism". To be honest, the resolution makes no sense, so I interpreted what you meant as you didn't provide an argument in Round 1.Then to address your literal resolution, if I must. Why would a victim of racism CAUSE more racism? It's common sense, really. If one is subject to racism, take for example a black man, if he was discrimnated against, is he going to get racist and then do the same thing. More than likely not. He will more than likely raise awareness about it and fight it.

Comment: "finally, i would like to mention that i literally meant the racism of today, as in from the end of the civil rights movement onward, so as not to confuse my opponent in any way."

I assumed that.

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Contention 2: Racism cannot be created by victims of racism
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Quite evidently, just by using common sense, one can deduce that one who has experienced racism will most obviously sympathize with anti-racism groups and help fight racism. As a matter of fact, there are plenty of examples. One extraordinary example is Harvey Milk. I understand this isn't literal racism but all the same really. Well Milk was discriminated against and instead of becoming a racist himself or creating stereotypes to fuel racism as my opponenet states in the reoslution, he fought it.

So the question the voters need to take in consideration today is: Why would someone discriminated against, want to do same thing afterwards?

I thank my opponent and all voters for their time. Please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 2
twin

Pro

Thank you for the tips and for allowing this debate to continue despite closing and reopening of my account.

"Rcism today is based largely on stereotypes created by the victims of said racism - "For the most part (not all) but most racism today is based on stereotypes, these stereotypes are either directly or indirectly created by the victims of the *KEY WORD* afomentioned Racism of Today, and the racism of today in particular. In being attributed to the group they are formed around, they indirectly cause racism based on the stereotypes that are created. Examples include African Americans stereotyped as criminals and peoples of Latino heritage being viewed as manual laborers and not much else..." - A statement I made in the comments section better explaining what I meant by the topic of this debate. I realize my error and appologize to my opponent for the confusion.

" It is not a stereotype that gives EVERYONE the impression of a certain race being a certain characteristic but, as I said, the personal hatrid that one feels." True indeed that it is not the stereotype that gives EVERYONE *that is key* the impression of a certain race, but the majority of people in today's society who are racist, or are called racist do base thier racism off of the stereotype.

It is truely common sense, and more so it's cause and effect. That stereotype (blacks being criminals, lets say) gives people a reason to hate or dislike blacks based on the stereotype that the blacks have created. I understand it may be hard to grasp, and many people wonder "How exactly could you think that someone would create their own racsim and not take action against it.?" It is indeed cause and effect, and the result is indirect, so they probably cannot see the reason why, especially if they are not criminals, they are precieved as such.

As for the mention of comedians, there is a fine line between "comedy" and racism, and I cite the actions of Michael Richards, even though it may help your point. In a state of blind anger from being heckled by fans, he verbally attacked a group of blacks in the stands using racial slurs including the N word.

"This proves absolutely nothing. Just because you showed a population of jails in the US, you are in no way proving how "racism today is based largely on steryotypes created by the victims of said racism"." Yeah, I know. Its not ment to do anything but back up the statement with a statistic. With the statement backed up, however, the statement becomes a powerful tool to show a common stereotype of blacks today. That stereotype is an example I will now use to show how stereotypes influence racism:

Say there an African American teen walking down the street in the normal clothes of a teenager, slightly baggy jeans, a hoodie, sneakers, etc. On the otherside of the street, there is a white teen dressed the same way. They both stop directly opposite of eachother to help an elderly woman cross the street. Bystanders who have a fairly good view of the situation call the police and report that the African American teen is robbing an elderly woman, and the white teen has no such calls reported against him.
This is exactly the type of racist stereotyping I am talking about. If you would like the real life equivialent of my example, go to www.youtube.com. Search ABC - 20/20 What would you do/racism in america. That racism was not based on hate, but on preconcieved notions caused by stereotypes of African American teens as common criminals.

"Contention 2: Racism cannot be created by victims of racism" Yes, it can, especially if the victims are stereotyped based on THIER OWN actions. Because it is what they do, not other people's hatrid that creates the stereotypes, the victims are at fault on their own. Again, this is not true in every case, hate is still prevelant in our society today and I am in no way infering that it has no effect on racism, but you have to wonder how a person born of two wealthy educated parents can come into the world completely objective, not have his/her opinions infringed upon in anyway, with an African American as president, and most likely friends of multipul ethnicities, and still be racist. It is stereotypes that give him any preconcieved notions before hand.

"So the question the voters need to take in consideration today is: Why would someone discriminated against, want to do same thing afterwards?" This is not the case. The real question voters need to consider is do I really hate someone else because of who they are, or do my friends hate someone else because of who they are, or maybe even your parents, whom ever you know in your life who is racist, you need to think to yourself "Why are they that way? Do they hate the other people, or do they just think that way for some other reason." In fact, I dare you to ask them, I'll bet you'll be suprised at the results...

Anyway, vote con, and yes, I'm aware I've just said vote CON and not PRO. I just want to see if you will for the lolz...
BellumQuodPacis

Con

YAY! Good grammar now! :D

Okay back to seriousness.

I thank my opponent for responding despite the sudden closure of his account and wish him good luck throughout this debate.

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Refutation
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Refutation 1: "True indeed that it is not the stereotype that gives EVERYONE *that is key* the impression of a certain race, but the majority of people in today's society who are racist, or are called racist do base their racism off of the stereotype."

This is where most others get confused. Racism is not solely based on stereotypes. For instance, a man works in Factory X in New Mexico. Then Factory X hires Illegal Immigrants and fires the current workers. This is where a base for racism is shown. As a matter of fact, this is actually a main cause of racism, especially in the current state of the economy. So it is not stereotypes that cause racism but personal hatred, which I prove later in my arguments ahead.

Refutation 2: "It is truly common sense, and more so it's cause and effect. That stereotype (blacks being criminals, lets say) gives people a reason to hate or dislike blacks based on the stereotype that the blacks have created. I understand it may be hard to grasp, and many people wonder "How exactly could you think that someone would create their own racism and not take action against it.?" It is indeed cause and effect, and the result is indirect, so they probably cannot see the reason why, especially if they are not criminals, they are perceived as such."

First off, I would like to point out that my opponent says that this form of racism is indirect and as the resolution states, it is supposed to be "largely based". Second, the only reason that black are considered criminals is because of the large population of black in prison. Also, we must look at historical facts to support my argument. In the 1960s ('s I'm not too sure), blacks were being denied the civil rights as other races received daily. However, Blacks weren't accountable for jail population at all back then. So why then were they discriminated against? The answer is simple. Personal Hatred. When blacks in the 1960s were offering to take less money for jobs and asking for more rights, people believed them to be inferior merely because they had less rights at the time. So, racism wasn't based off a stereotype then. The fact of the matter is however, relevant to today as well. Maybe perhaps from revenge from the 60s or merely because someone was literally raised to hate blacks. Stereotypes are not nearly a large enough of a factor to be considered as a "base" for racism.

Refutation 3: "As for the mention of comedians, there is a fine line between "comedy" and racism, and I cite the actions of Michael Richards, even though it may help your point. In a state of blind anger from being heckled by fans, he verbally attacked a group of blacks in the stands using racial slurs including the N word."

Again as you said, there is a fine line in which Comedy and racism have its bounds. However, comedians use stereotypes on a daily basis. They come up with new ones. But yet, nobody has ever started a racist movement nearly based off a comedians remarks. So regardless, stereotypes do not FUEL or start racism.

Refutation 4: ""This proves absolutely nothing. Just because you showed a population of jails in the US, you are in no way proving how "racism today is based largely on steryotypes created by the victims of said racism"." Yeah, I know. Its not ment to do anything but back up the statement with a statistic. With the statement backed up, however, the statement becomes a powerful tool to show a common stereotype of blacks today. That stereotype is an example I will now use to show how stereotypes influence racism:"

I appreciate you admitting that your statistic had absolutely nothing to do with your argument. I hope voters will take this into consideration. Reagrdless though, even if it is a unrelevant statistic, then it doesnt belong there period. It is like using an unloaded gun to protect yourself. It won't work.

Refutation 5: "Say there an African American teen walking down the street in the normal clothes of a teenager, slightly baggy jeans, a hoodie, sneakers, etc. On the otherside of the street, there is a white teen dressed the same way. They both stop directly opposite of eachother to help an elderly woman cross the street. Bystanders who have a fairly good view of the situation call the police and report that the African American teen is robbing an elderly woman, and the white teen has no such calls reported against him.
This is exactly the type of racist stereotyping I am talking about. If you would like the real life equivialent of my example, go to www.youtube.com. Search ABC - 20/20 What would you do/racism in america. That racism was not based on hate, but on preconcieved notions caused by stereotypes of African American teens as common criminals."

First off, I have no idea how there are two old ladies that both need walking across the street, how these two are wearing the exact same thing, and how helping an old lady across the street looks like a mugging. I know its just hypothetical but (again another tip, this doesnt count) make your analogies realistic to where the voters can say "Oh, I get it." Again, that was just another helpful tip.

To address your source, indeed it does expose racism caused by stereotypes, but what is VERY misleading about that show, is that they only show the videos where racism was successfully noticed or stopped. As a matter of fact, at the end of the show, it ALWAYS states that all results are edited to meet within the time constraints of the programming.

Due to a character limit, I'll have to end it there. However I will expand more in the final round. Good luck to my opponent in his closer, and please VOTE CON.
Debate Round No. 3
twin

Pro

twin forfeited this round.
BellumQuodPacis

Con

I wish to thank twin for this debate, hope he returns in good haste. All arguments extended and passed. Please vote CON. Thank you.

PEACE OUT VANILLAS!!!
Debate Round No. 4
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
"PEACE OUT VANILLAS!!!"

-.-
WTF?

You lose my conduct point just for that.
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 7 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
All points to me because it is quite evident.
Posted by natpoe 7 years ago
natpoe
There are two separate assertions here and they should be debated separately:
1) Racism is based on stereotypes.
2) Targets of racism are responsible for racist acts committed against them, i.e., racism is justifiable.
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 7 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
Keep debating then.
Posted by twin 7 years ago
twin
FOR ALL PEOPLE COMMENTING ON AND INVOLVED IN THE CURRENT DEBATE, I have recieved more than one complaint about the confusing nature of the topic of the debate, and whilst I believe my opponent has a firm grasp of what I mean, I will make sense of it for you here and now.

I am saying "For the most part (not all) but most racism today is based on stereotypes, these stereotypes are either directly or indirectly created by the victims of the *KEY WORD* afomentioned Racism of Today, and the racism of today in particular. In being attributed to the group they are formed around, they indirectly cause racism based on the stereotypes that are created. Examples include African Americans stereotyped as criminals and peoples of Latino heritage being viewed as manual laborers and not much else...

That should help out those in need, at least I hope...
Posted by twin 7 years ago
twin
i'm back dude, however, i will still give you the win by default for the closing and reopening of my accout if you'd like...
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 7 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
Auto win. Thank you twin. Please b safe. VOTE CON BY DEFAULT
Posted by twin 7 years ago
twin
check my profile
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 7 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
Lol @ Zet and you are forgiven rails.
Posted by Railsguardian 7 years ago
Railsguardian
EDIT: I directed my previous comment at twin, not at BQP. Sorry for the misnomer!
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by belle 7 years ago
belle
twinBellumQuodPacisTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Vote Placed by BellumQuodPacis 7 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
twinBellumQuodPacisTied
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Total points awarded:07