The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

required threshhold of faith required for Christians to be saved is not clear

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
dairygirl4u2c
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/12/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 369 times Debate No: 60393
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the requirements are either too vague, or too listy/dogmatic.

the bible says if you confess with your mouth jesus is lord, and beleive in your heart that he was raised from the dead you will be saved. it also say if you believe in the lord you will be saved. it also has all kinds of other statements.
i'm sure if you do these, that is sufficient. but what about various other scenarios, like the content of 'sinner's prayers' that dont include those things?

what or where exactly is the threshhold?

if you believe he existed or is God is that enough? probably not cause the bible says demons do likewise.

what about a list of of common beleifs? that you rely on him generally, that he is your savior, that you are a sinner, that he is lord, tha he rose from the dead, that he was incarnated, that he is God, that he is the son of God, that you believe you are saved (plenty of christians say you must believe you are saved, or you aren't saved), substitutionary atonement v 'christus victor' etc etc.

ask different christians, get a different answer, almost every time. they just have 'gut feelings' but dont have firm answers. see past debates from me on this topic, and you'll note a different answer pretty much every time.

some say you have to admit you're a sinner and that he is your savior. what if you believed all the other things and not these? or what if you believe you're a sinner, and that he's a savior, but not that he's God, or a various type of atonement belief. eg, chrsitaus victor v substitutionary.
some say that he is God is required, some say legal substitution is mandatory.

and how do you demarcate the requirements for those who are new to the faith, and those who are really knowledgeable? it might be seen a okay for a newbie to miss a thing or two, but less understandable for the expreinced etc. does this come into play?

so what's the magical formula?
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

First, thank you for your vote in my front page debate. I really can't understand how people can twist the simple logic that an Atheist cannot win in any way in Pascal's Wager. Ok, for the current debate...........


Binding Contract:
I, God, do hereby swear by the blood of my Son, Jesus, to overlook all of your violations of my Holy Law (sin) and grant you full pardon and entrance into eternal life by the resurrection of my Son from the dead if you will agree to the following terms:

1) You must acknowledge that you are the one who deserved to die and my Son did not deserve to die.
2) You must believe that I love you so much that I died in your place in the form of Jesus Christ my Son, and you must believe that I raised Him from the dead and can do the same for you.
3) You must ask me to accept you on these terms, asking for my mercy to forgive you and believe that I am willing to forgive you. You must receive my Son, Jesus, as your Saviour by asking me in His name to save you.
This contract is written by me in the blood of my Son whom I gave to be the satisfaction for payment for your sins against me. If you honestly agree to the terms above, and will receive my Son as your Saviour, sign below.
It's not too good to be true, , I always honor my Word, and I have committed all Judgement into the hands of My Son, Jesus, who paid the price to secure this contract for you.

Sign here ____________________________________to enter into agreement with God and receive His guarantee of pardon and eternal life in Jesus Christ.
If you signed this agreement and received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, gettting baptized is the next step showing you are now identified in His death, burial, (shown by submersion under water) and resurrection (shown by being raised up out of water), and share the good news!
The Gospel according to John is a good place to start reading, and of course use only the King James Bible. Then read the Letter to the Romans. And pray and talk to God every day and ask Him to show Himself to you through His Word, the Bible, and thank God and praise the LORD forever!
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the bible disagees with you.

according to the bible, there is a simpler way to be saved.

Romans 10
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

but that's not the real point. that's just one established way to be saved. the issues is that anything listed is either too listy and dogmatic and exclusive, or too vague.

con's points are too listy, as demonstrated by the bible itself.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Ok, I'll try to spell it out in different ways. It's not a magic formula. If it were a magic formula, it would be like witchcraft; you doing something in an attempt to cause something to happen. Salvation is a gift from God. It is not something we can make happen. God makes it happen when we admit that we are separated from Him by our sin and we believe the gospel and in Jesus' name call on God the Father to save us. There is no reason to believe God is unable to do this when we are in agreement with Him regarding our sin and are trusting in His mercy that He executed the punishment for our sin on His Son, and that in His Son's resurrection we can receive forgiveness and full pardon. Since He took my death, I am crucified with Him. Since he rose from the grave, my sin is buried and left behind Him. Since I received Him as my Saviour, He is my life and His life is eternal. I received Him by believing on Him and entering into agreement with God so that God could save me and He did. He promises eternal life now, "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". It's not a magic formula, To be born again is an act of God which God makes happen when He sees we are in agreement with Him regarding our sin and His right to execute us in Hell for it, and believing on Jesus can calling on Him to save us. We can take God at His Word. He wants us to know that we have eternal life when we are saved, He wants us to have confidence with Him like a child has toward it's father. It's so simple a child can understand. Why not believe God and quit trying to earn His favor? Why not simply believe God is willing to forgive you and keep you safe from Hell now, and preserved for eternal life forever? Is God unable or unwilling to do this? He wants to show His mercy and goodness through us who He died to save.

I guess if there is a threshold of faith, it would be your breaking point......when you finally swallow your pride and admit that you deserve to die and burn in Hell for your sin, and admit that you are lost and need to be saved. Until you reach that point and believe on Jesus in His resurrection and receive Him alive in person as your Saviour, you won't be saved. If you will come to that point in agreement with God, He will save you if you call on Him in faith in Jesus' name to save you. How can He save you if you won't believe He can save you? He will give you a new life, a new hope, a lively hope, He will be in you a well of water springing up to eternal life, living waters flowing out of you. He will make you a new creation and the sure hope of heaven and the joy of knowing you are saved will take you through the trials of life.

It's only a matter of the light of the gospel shining through and the Light coming on for you. Jesus is the Light, your candle is burning out in time. He will be your Light and your candle will never go out if you will receive Him. He wants to be your Light. He wants you to shave in His eternal life now and know you are saved from hell.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

what if someone just acknowledges they are a sinner and he is their savior? you like to talk a lot about hell fire.
or what if they turned over a new leaf ie born again and rely on him?
or what if they say he is lord of their life, master of their life, and rely on him?

your requirements still seem too specific and listy and exclusive.

you admit the bible says 'confess with your lips..." etc, but then go on to give different more listy criteria.

you admit verses as 'vague' as 'call on the name.... shall be saved' but then go on to give different more listy criteria.

you also seem to sort of admit that it is not set in stone, but varies on the situation, as if it is holistic.... but that's what i'm arguing. but then while you do that you go on to give specific criteria again.

it seems you are all over the board on this.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Thank you for good questions, and thank you for good manners. I understand your doubts and skepticism about being saved and knowing you are saved due to the many ways salvation is explained and the seeming differences in the many ways the Bible says we can be saved. There is a common denominator if all of these examples. There is a uniting factor which explains all of the differences in how to be saved. If I can persuade you to accept the common denominator and the uniting factor, I may or may not win this debate but I will win a convert to salvation for the Lord's glory. Salvation is explained in many ways in the Bible because it is an act of God, and it is difficult if not impossible to explain His salvation in one framework of words that will be understood by all people. No matter how salvation is explained, most people will not get it because they are not ready to admit that they have nothing good to offer God in or of themselves as a reason why they should be spared from the fire of Hell. The common denominator and the uniting factor in the many ways the Bible explains salvation is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The part you seem to be leaving out of your questionings is how to receive Him as your Saviour to be saved.

It does seem that you are honestly seeking answers from God and not trying to harden your heart against Him to excuse any bad behaviour you might enjoy or fall into. God promises, in Jeremiah 29:13, "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Again, I want to commend you for asking honest questions and seeking honest answers.


Receiving Jesus Christ as the Saviour is how a person is saved. John 1:12 and 13 puts it this way: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Here is an explanation of the new birth which occurs when we believe on Jesus and receive Him as our Saviour. He, by His Holy Spirit, comes in to us as He promises He will do if we open the door to Him when we hear Him knocking. Revelation 3:20, in Jesus' own words, explains it this way: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." We can take God at His Word and be born again as new creations in Christ , children of God and secure in knowing our Father is God. To be born again, to be saved, is an act of God which God performs when we come into agreement with God whole heartedly believing on His Son and trusting God to save us. It's hard to explain what God does, but He promises to do it and He does it, and it's wonderful to know God as Father through Jesus Christ the Son, being indwelt by Him in His Holy Spirit.


Jesus explained it this way in John chapter 3: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now, to specifically address your opening statements and questions in the preceding argument:

what if someone just acknowledges they are a sinner and he is their savior? you like to talk a lot about hell fire.
or what if they turned over a new leaf ie born again and rely on him?
or what if they say he is lord of their life, master of their life, and rely on him?


Jesus is the Saviour, but acknowledging that you are a sinner and acknowledging that Jesus is your Saviour is what you do. You are not saved until God saves you. You are not saved until you are born again. You are not born again until you receive Jesus Christ. "Receiving Him" is the part you are leaving out in all of your questions and observations. I'm sad thinking how many poor answers and explanations you have heard from people who should be better able to explain their faith and their salvation.

If you turn over a new leaf, that does not make you born again. You can turn a leaf over a hundred times, and then you are only an experienced leaf turner who is the same person you always were. You can turn over a hundred new leaves, it's still the same old you who is turning the leaves. Turning over a new leaf does not make you a new person. You were conceived by your parents to be the person you are. A new you must be conceived by God to be born again, and God makes that happen when you realize you are lost and have nothing to offer God in or of yourself for your salvation, and you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in His resurrection, and receive Him.

If you say He is lord of your life, and master of your life, and you rely on Him, that is all you. He is Lord of all if you say He is Lord or not. He is master of your life if you acknowledge Him as your master or not. He is the master of everything. He rules against sin as the Master of Creation and all creatures. You rely on Him if you say you do not or if you say you do. It is by Him that all things consist. Saying these things is only saying these things. To say these things does not make you a new creation. You have to be born again to be a new creation. 2 Cor. 5:17 puts it this way: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
You have to be born again to be saved from the fire of Hell. I talk a lot about Hell fire because many people today fail to see that Justice from God demands execution of sinners forever in the fire of Hell where their rebellion will be separated from His creation and never disrupt His creation again. If people really understood where they are going if they are not saved, they would see their need to be saved and the impossibility of saving themselves or earning salvation and they would receive Jesus Christ the Lord, the Creator who is our Saviour, and be born again and saved from the fire of Hell.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Jeff-in-Wisconsin 2 years ago
Jeff-in-Wisconsin
Both of you haven't a clue to salvation's requirement. Since the New Testament begins after the death of the testator and the letters from Romans to Revelations were written to those already in the church and working out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Your debate as to how to enter the Church misses the point. The book of the Acts of the Apostles clearly shows you what you must do.......emphasis on do! The first day 3000 were added. You need to ask yourself what Peter exhorted them to do when he was asked that specific question when they acknowledged their guilt and were pricked in their hearts. Think for a moment and ask yourself why the apostle Paul would question "believers" in Corinth in Acts 19 if they had the Holy Spirit? Then had the gall to ask them how they were baptized. Do you think he didn't have a clue? Don't you think he wanted them to be a part of the church so that he might instruct them in his letters later as to how to continue in salvation's path..........if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth. Those words were sent in a letter to church members, not lost souls looking to enter in. It is my contention that their are way to many lost thinking they are saved because they haven't even entered in by the strait gate......and yes I mean the correct watery way!
Posted by Vexorator 2 years ago
Vexorator
dairygirl4u2c:

You're 27 years old, you've been a member of this site for 6 years, and participated in 472 debates.

After all that, I'd think you'd be a debating genius by now...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
dairygirl4u2cLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Multiple thresholds = unclear