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required threshhold of faith required for Christians to be saved is not clear

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/28/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 310 times Debate No: 77071
Debate Rounds (3)
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the requirements are either too vague, or too listy/dogmatic.

the bible says if you confess with your mouth jesus is lord, and beleive in your heart that he was raised from the dead you will be saved. it also say if you believe in the lord you will be saved. it also has all kinds of other statements.
i'm sure if you do these, that is sufficient. but what about various other scenarios, like the content of 'sinner's prayers' that dont include those things?

what or where exactly is the threshhold?

if you believe he existed or is God is that enough? probably not cause the bible says demons do likewise.

what about a list of of common beleifs? that you rely on him generally, that he is your savior, that you are a sinner, that he is lord, tha he rose from the dead, that he was incarnated, that he is God, that he is the son of God, that you believe you are saved (plenty of christians say you must believe you are saved, or you aren't saved), substitutionary atonement v 'christus victor' etc etc.

ask different christians, get a different answer, almost every time. they just have 'gut feelings' but dont have firm answers. see past debates from me on this topic, and you'll note a different answer pretty much every time.

some say you have to admit you're a sinner and that he is your savior. what if you believed all the other things and not these? or what if you believe you're a sinner, and that he's a savior, but not that he's God, or a various type of atonement belief. eg, chrsitaus victor v substitutionary.
some say that he is God is required, some say legal substitution is mandatory.

and how do you demarcate the requirements for those who are new to the faith, and those who are really knowledgeable? it might be seen a okay for a newbie to miss a thing or two, but less understandable for the expreinced etc. does this come into play?

so what's the magical formula?


I would like to thank my opponent for creating this debate . I think before we start we must agree on one point that the bible is inspired inerrant non contradictory word of God . I believe this must be our starting point. In answer to your arguement. I think the bible is clear. To be saved you have to believe the gospel. I believe Galatians 1:6 implies that there is one gospel that saves and that you are saved through the gospel . So I think the real question we are at is what is the gospel? I think throughout the NT you see many different gospel presentations . But one main message . I believe the gospel is that all because of sin are under Gods wrath but God sent his son to take our sin on the cross and all who believe on him shall not perish. Now you asked what if someone believed that Jesus was lord but not God. I think this is an issue of biblical authority I think Jesus saw no distinctions between his words and the rest of the bible JN 10:34-39 Jesus says that whoever abides in his word has life (JN 8:31-47) and whoever rejects Jesus words about himself as the son of God is not abiding in them . So really loud I'm clear this is what I think you have to believe to be saved .
1. That because of sin you have a wrong relashonship with God and are going to hell Romans 3:23
2.that God sent his son to die for the sins of his people removing barrier between God and Man. John 10:11
3. All who believe on him will have eternal life . John 3:16
4.the whole gospel is from the bible and only the bible I believe that the bible was inspired by God and is there fore completely true
Debate Round No. 1


so just as i predicted, some christian gives a random snapshot of what they think people need to be saved.

did you all know there is a magic four pronged approach to salvation? see con's four points. so con is saying someone who doesn't believe the bible is true will be condemned, per prong four? they can admit they are a sinner and jesus is the savior, but question the bible, and they are condemned?

plus while con gave a four prong approach, he also insisted you must believe JEsus is God. that is prong five? they can believe all four of cons explicit prongs, but question that he is God, and they are condemned? unless you were just stating that you believe it is a side issue but clear that Jesus is God?

what about someone who doesn't acknowlege they are sinful per prong one. but confess with their mouth that Jesus is lord and that he was risen from hte dead? that is an explicit command for who can be saved from the bible. they might even consider Jesus as God. does con go against, or add and subtract, from the bible?


Well as I cited last arguement Jesus saw no distinction between his words and the rest of bible john 10:34-39 and john 5:46 -47. Jesus also said whoever abides in his words has life (john 8:31-37) and some one who rejects Jesus words is obviously not abiding in them. My opponent did not adress this . The implications of these verses are that if some one believes that they are sinner and Jesus died for them but does not believe Jesus is God rejects Jesus testimony about himself and is not abiding in his word. My opponent is also not showing contradictions in scripture we're the bible contradicts itself and is also not responding to the texts that I bring up.Greg Gilbert has a chapter in his and Kevin deyoung a book what is the mission of the church? Which is a great book which I would highly recommend. The chapter is called are we missing the gospel. His thesis is that the bible has different lenses when talking about the gospel . A wide angle lense and a zoom lense . Let's look at the wide angle lense . In Matthew 4 Jesus preaches the gospel of the kingdom it has two main points a) the kingdom has dawned and b) all who repent shall enter it. This is a good example of one of many passages that speak of the good news or gospel in a broad sense.(for more see acts 13:32-33 Luke 4:18-19 ). now for a zoom view. Acts 13:36-43 speaks of the good news as the good news of peace (he is lord of all) to him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins in his name. This is a very zoom lensed view of the good news . Notice however it does not contradict the broad lense at all (for more zoom lensed see Romans1:16-17 1cor.15:1-5and 1cor.1:17-18) . I believe the reason my opponent is confused on what you must believe is because he is confusing these to "angles" of the gospel . (Resources- ray ortlund - the gospel Greg Gilbert - what is the gospel? )
Debate Round No. 2


con didn't respond to this: what about someone who doesn't acknowlege they are sinful per prong one. but confess with their mouth that Jesus is lord and that he was risen from hte dead? that is an explicit command for who can be saved from the bible. they might even consider Jesus as God. does con go against, or add and subtract, from the bible?

the way con is trying to argue it, salvation should come in reading the bible and doing what it says as if it is inerrant. that way he doesn't have to get tripped up on some specific idea of what needs believed when i can just throw a loop in it like the last paragraph or first post. but then it'd be too vague, cause no one agrees with what the bible means. to be sure, abiding in his word doesn't necessarily mean followng the bible, it could just mean following the spririt. that could be how God structured everything. to be sure, there are plenty who believe most fundamental things but question based on the bible whether Jesus is God.


Rebuttal 1: my opponent raises the question of whether someone needs to believe themselves a sinner AND that Jesus died for them and rose from the grave . Answer: this is an issue of biblical inerrancy if what the bible says true then they are wrong. But again my opponent raises the question why does it matter. Answer : John 1 calls Jesus the word , as we have seen earlier Jesus saw no distinctions between his words and the rest of the bible so to reject what the bible says is to reject Jesus himself. So to be be saved you have to accept what the bible says and this is what the bible says

1.God created man perfect but man sinned against God putting his wrath on them. Rom. 3:23
2. God loved the world and sent Jesus , the son of God born of a virgin fully God and man, to die for the sins of his people. John 3:16, john 10:11.
3 all who believe on him shall have eternal life. John 3:16
Debate Round No. 3
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Vote Placed by Alpha3141 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I agree with Con. The Bible is clear. What it teaches is clear. The only way to say it isn't is if you haven't read it or if you misinterpret it.