The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Skynet
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

required threshhold of faith required for Christians to be saved is not clear

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Skynet
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/30/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 297 times Debate No: 78280
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the requirements are either too vague, or too listy/dogmatic.

the bible says if you confess with your mouth jesus is lord, and beleive in your heart that he was raised from the dead you will be saved. it also say if you believe in the lord you will be saved. it also has all kinds of other statements.
i'm sure if you do these, that is sufficient. but what about various other scenarios, like the content of 'sinner's prayers' that dont include those things?

what or where exactly is the threshhold?

if you believe he existed or is God is that enough? probably not cause the bible says demons do likewise.

what about a list of of common beleifs? that you rely on him generally, that he is your savior, that you are a sinner, that he is lord, tha he rose from the dead, that he was incarnated, that he is God, that he is the son of God, that you believe you are saved (plenty of christians say you must believe you are saved, or you aren't saved), substitutionary atonement v 'christus victor' etc etc.

ask different christians, get a different answer, almost every time. they just have 'gut feelings' but dont have firm answers. see past debates from me on this topic, and you'll note a different answer pretty much every time.

some say you have to admit you're a sinner and that he is your savior. what if you believed all the other things and not these? or what if you believe you're a sinner, and that he's a savior, but not that he's God, or a various type of atonement belief. eg, chrsitaus victor v substitutionary.
some say that he is God is required, some say legal substitution is mandatory.

and how do you demarcate the requirements for those who are new to the faith, and those who are really knowledgeable? it might be seen a okay for a newbie to miss a thing or two, but less understandable for the expreinced etc. does this come intoplay?

so what's the magical formula?
Skynet

Con

The requirements of salvation are simple, but there are many doctrines that follow and are correct, but not necessary to know for salvation.

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

I take it you are educated in Catholic doctrines to some extent, so much of this may be familiar, but I will start from the top so we can be assured of the consistency of my arguments.

Man is sinful, and requires salvation:
"...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Genesis 2:17

Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
Luke 9:60

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions"it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph. 2:4-5

And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Genesis 3:22

Disobeying God results in spiritual death, which leads to physical death.

Since God is merciful and gracious, all we need to do for salvation is come back to him in simple faith, and obey him again. What does he command, and what does obedience look like, and how do we know obedience is enough?

"Stand up, plead my case before the mountains;
let the hills hear what you have to say.
"Hear, you mountains, the Lord"s accusation;
listen, you everlasting foundations of the earth.
For the Lord has a case against his people;
he is lodging a charge against Israel.
"My people, what have I done to you?
How have I burdened you? Answer me.
...
With what shall I come before the Lord
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." The second is this: "Love your neighbor as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these."
"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
Mark 12:28-34

Not far, but not there yet. Why? Entering the kingdom of God requires that we trust Christ, who told us to trust in his sacrifice as the final one for our sins, of which this teacher of the law was not yet aware.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: "They will all be taught by God." Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
...
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
John 6

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
Mark 8:31

"My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
...
Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?"
Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
...
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father"s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Mark 13-16

If you believe God, you will believe His Son. His Son said you must trust in his sacrifice. Other doctrines we might disagree on, but getting right with God is most important. And getting right with Him requires atonement for sin, which He provided for us.

Salvation: The work is done by God, all we need to do is whole-heartedly accept the sacrifice (feed on his flesh, drink of his blood for the nurishment of real, everlasting life).

Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?" Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
John 10:4-13
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

con gave a long list of things, loving God and others, trusting Jesus, eating Jesus' flesh, pleading the case of the widow and all that, declaring Jesus is lord and rose, etc etc.

but i he does finally distill it, i suppose was his intent, to...

"Salvation: The work is done by God, all we need to do is whole-heartedly accept the sacrifice (feed on his flesh, drink of his blood for the nurishment of real, everlasting life).'

so he said from the get go that if you confess with yoru mouth that Jesus is lord and that he was rose from the dead, that is sufficient. and that is what the bible says. but here con says you must eat his flesh. (and other points con said different things. )

apparently the bible isn't true that if you confess withyour mouth and that he rose from the dead yo won't be saved?

con has some work to do distilling his salvation points
Skynet

Con

Eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of Christ was used as a metaphor more closely linking it to sacrifice Hebrews were used to, where the family offering the Passover Lamb would dine on a portion of it. Those who did not were to be excluded from the Jewish community. (The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. -Ex. 12:13) It was made clear at the last supper that as Jesus broke bread, he said "THIS is my body..." meaning the imagery in the Passover feast was the image of his sacrifice.

Salvation is this: Honest-in-the-heart obedience to God, because of faith in Him, which results in trust in His Son, Jesus. If you love God, you will instinctively follow Jesus, and do as he commands.
(My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.-John 10:27
No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.-Matt. 11:27)
What did Jesus command?
Jesus commanded that you must trust in his sacrifice on the cross for your sins.
In order for the sacrifice to be relevant, you must acknowledge sin. That's why John the Baptist came, paving the way with baptism to repentance of sins. (Matthew 3:11)

There is prerequisite knowledge for salvation (acknowledgement of sin, knowledge of Christ's sacrifice as the only worthy sacrifice)
But all that is condensed into a sinners prayer:

"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name."

The list is not complicated, and the above is backed up as a legitimate distillation of all the by the scriptures that I have provided in the last 2 rounds. If there is any confusion about requirements for salvation, please ask, and I will do my best to provide an answer from the Bible.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name."

so con finally condensed it. so here we have it folks, the end all be all of salvation. you might want to do a double check, cause you might have started to do things he listed in round one, but suddenly he condensed it, so you might to check to make sure you got all the essential thigns.

so, if someone tells you they rely on Jesus as savior, youd tell them they are not necessarily saved? for you would say they have to admit they are a sinner, ask forgiveness, believe he died for their sins, rose from hte dead, turn from sins, invite and trust in Him.

what if they were like Peter when Jesus asked "and who do you say I am?". and they said "you are the chosen one, the Son of GOd"
would you then have to tell that person to make sure they get all the other essentials cause they still aren't necessarily saved?

what if they believe the sinner's prayer but dont believe he rose from the dead?
what if they believe most of the prayer but not that they are sinners?
what if they believe the prayer except that He died for their sins?

i could see con standing firm on his sinner's prayers and saying all those examples are insufficient.

how do you respond to the examples?
Skynet

Con

Providing references and biblical basis for the condensed sinner's prayer does not mean there is any contradiction between the prayer and the bible. Pro would need to show how requirements for salvation contradict the simple sinner's prayer, or how the sinner's prayer leaves out an essential element, which she did not do. It seems Pro demands that in order for the requirements for salvation not to be "too vague or too listy/dogmatic," they must only have one item with no prerequisite knowledge of anything. This is moving the goalposts as "too many" could mean anything. I have established the exact threshold is trusting in Jesus and his sacrifice for the atonement of sins, which is what Pro demanded in R1.

On to Pro's final round rebuttals:


so, if someone tells you they rely on Jesus as savior, youd tell them they are not necessarily saved? for you would say they have to admit they are a sinner, ask forgiveness, believe he died for their sins, rose from hte dead, turn from sins, invite and trust in Him.

Jesus covered all those items. If they trusted him, they'd have repented, asked for forgiveness, and believed Jesus when he said he'd rise again. It all boils down to trusting him. If they meant that, then yes. If they thought Jesus was saving them from 6 cent sales tax, they would not be saved. That hypothetical statement is not enough by itself to know the gospel.

what if they were like Peter when Jesus asked "and who do you say I am?". and they said "you are the chosen one, the Son of GOd"

Acknowledging Jesus' identity is not enough. Even the demons know who he is, as Pro stated in R1.

would you then have to tell that person to make sure they get all the other essentials cause they still aren't necessarily saved?

what if they believe the sinner's prayer but dont believe he rose from the dead?
what if they believe most of the prayer but not that they are sinners?
what if they believe the prayer except that He died for their sins?

This debate has gone from what I was hoping was genuine knowledge seeking to nit-picking. The list of biblical references I gave in R1 can all be condensed into the sinner's prayer. There are no requirements left out. Yes, it requires pre-requisite knowledge, as does everything. My opponent is saying that a sinner acknowledging thier situation and repenting, and trusting in Christ and what he said is too complicated. Even if you don't believe in the Gospel, it is plain that the Gospel is simple.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Alpha3141 1 year ago
Alpha3141
If you really want to know, then why not read the Bible?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by medv4380 1 year ago
medv4380
dairygirl4u2cSkynetTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: It probably wasn't a good start for the Instigator, Pro, to make a contradictory claim that the Bible's requirements are ether too vague, or too 'listy', aka Specific. Cons counter with the sinners prayer was sufficient, and he covered pros hypothetical objections with what Jesus had to say on the issue. In general Christian is too general a term, and had Pro gone after the vagueness as a result of the numerous interpretations maybe Pro would have had a point. Pro did mention it, but stayed in the realm of Anecdote, and lacked actual specifics.