The Instigator
Enoch_deftinwolf
Pro (for)
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The Contender
adhominem
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

revolution is the only way to establish a communist society

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 995 times Debate No: 48867
Debate Rounds (4)
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Enoch_deftinwolf

Pro

the known attempt's of communism all started with an armed revolution of the proletariat.

but first to clarify some terms:
-the communist ideology itself is not the subject of this debate, the implementation of it is.
-i speak of all derivatives of Marxism. I.e. Leninism, Maoism, Stalinism.
-first round is for acceptance
adhominem

Con

There were 2 schools of Communist thought prior to the Bolshevik/Russian revolution. On the one hand we had Lenin and the other "revolutionaries" who spoke of violent struggle and revolution to otherthrow the capitalist class. Unfortunately it is those guys who history remembers most, which is perhaps understandable give the rather bloody history of the 20th Century. It is also to the advantage of big business and the 1% to keep up the propaganda and portray communism as an irrational, violent "enemy" rather than progressive thinkers trying to improve society for the benefit of all.

On the other side of the debate were men/women like Antonie Pannekoek, Otto R"hle, Sylvia Pankhurst and Paul Mattick who are given names such as left communists, council communists, libertarian socialists, or left-libertarian.

Left Communists advocate for Socialist and most importantly DEMOCRATIC ideas such as the workers councils in Germany which are now dominant in their automative sector - which is the worlds best. Topically and perhaps depressingly American Republican politicians are currently OPPOSING the right of VW to create workers councils in America which they say will damage the economy - as if they know more about how to create a car company than VW.
http://www.autonews.com...

To me the motivations behind this are pretty obvious - successful workers councils at American VW plants would encourage the RE-EMERGENCE of socialist ideas which the right has fought to suppress for decades during the cold war.

Another left communist idea is the cooperatively owned and run business and the Cooperative in the UK is one of the UK's most successful businesses. (Wikipedia: "with over 7 million members, who have a say in how the business is run and how its social goals are achieved". )

Contemporary scholars in the US who advocate this sort of position include Richard Wolff who advocates for "Democracy at Work" www.democracyatwork.info (workers collectives writ large) and Noam Chomsky, a man considered the worlds foremost intellectual.

If laws were changed to make collectively-owned business more competitive - in the same way corporations have legal advantages such as paying less tax than private individuals because they pay on profits only - this would encourage them and help transform society, making it far more equal, far more just, democratic and basically everything Marx et al was advocating for.

What we consider as Modern Industrial Capitalism - the very thing Marx hated, the very thing Communism grew out of like its shadow - was created by Technology and its important to understand this. We are not talking about Capitalism as some eternal force of nature. The skilled Artisans who created (not manufactured) products in the UK were replaced in the early 1800s by the first Factories who used machines to replicate their skill and created the first Mass Produced products - creating technological unemployment which led to the first 9-5 jobs. This is the origin of Capitalism as a negative or Evil force, before that the word didnt really exist in the sense it does now. This first began around the city of Manchester (where i studied) and this is really the centre of capitalist/communist history IMO. Engels actually had a factory there and Marx used to visit him and it is in Manchester where he wrote the Communist Manifesto (theres a plaque on the wall of some shops in the town centre where it supposedly was written) and other works, Engels also wrote a book called The Condition of the Working Class in England (1844) which explains these origins and laments the destruction of society because of technological unemployment.

But it was not just Marxism that came out of these changes in Manchester it was also the first Cooperative movement, the Coop i mentioned earlier was founded in 1844 in Manchester, exactly the same year as Engels wrote his book. The Rochdale pioneers (founded circa 1844) http://en.wikipedia.org... are considered one of the very first cooperative societies which attempted to create not just a commercial business jointly-owned but to organise their whole community under cooperative principles.

So in summary Industrial Capitalism - what Socialists actually hate, not markets as the rich would have you believe - created in the 1800s, quickly in the same area it arose, created two opposing forces - right communist radicals and left communist cooperative movements. Right-communists grabbed the headlines initially trying to force a revolution but in the end democratic Left-communists armed with better technology will ultimately win out - that is my contention.
Debate Round No. 1
Enoch_deftinwolf

Pro

thanks to my opponent for accepting and a good contention.

But i must state this contention is nothing more than social democracy. and dose not involve the seizing the means of production and establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat. and these left libertarians aren't exactly historically significant in the same way Lenin and Guevara is. both well known icons of revolution. as social democracy may vary well promote communist ideas the result of those ideas will end up in the inevitable armed uprising. Marx was a revolutionary at heart, otherwise he wouldn't have been exiled from as many countries as he did. the communist manifesto was, a manifesto calling for action and giving the reasoning of said action. Actionwill be achieved, and relatively soon by the looks of EU.
adhominem

Con

adhominem forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Enoch_deftinwolf

Pro

well, my opponent forfeited. i will assume it was only because he was AFK.
adhominem

Con

adhominem forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Enoch_deftinwolf

Pro

Enoch_deftinwolf forfeited this round.
adhominem

Con

adhominem forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
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