The Instigator
jackgilbert
Pro (for)
The Contender
Shanor
Con (against)

should capitalism be in place instead of socialism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/22/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 342 times Debate No: 106068
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

jackgilbert

Pro

capitalism should be in the government instead of socialism. What happens when you use socialism is that everyone thinks that they don't have to work now, no income comes in, and the country can fall apart.
Shanor

Con

This debate is to complex for "everyone thinks they don't have to work" to make it, create a more specific path of reasoning and then I will craft a rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 1
jackgilbert

Pro

Let me start out my argument by saying this. There are many people in this world, some of which are naturally smarter than others, some of which have more of a natural desire to work than others, which is okay.Capitalism really gives people an incentive to work. What Capitalism does is it gives room for people to be high achievers. It gives the smart people a opportunity to have an excellent salary and really what Capitalism does is it gives these high achievers a chance to be really successful. Socialism takes away this opportunity. It takes all of the money that people earn and distributes it equally among everyone in the country. This can run into a couple of problems. One it is stealing. By taking money that does not belong to you from someone else that is stealing, even if it is being given to someone else, it's still stealing. Another problem with socialism is that it takes away the motivation for the really smart people to work. It gives them the mindset that no matter how hard they work they will make just as much as everyone else. It doesn't give them the desire to work. They can think that they can now not work at all now and still make the same amount of money. And these really smart people can be business owners without the desire to work. These can be people providing employment for other people but now have know desire to work and eventually decide to quit work. Then you have thousands of people without work because these high businesses and high achievers quit work. This is not just high achievers. This is everyone. They can know that they will make the same amount of money as anyone else without working causing the amount of total income of the whole country to go down. This makes the average income per person drop dramatically. And if the true geniuses quit their job amazing inventions will go down. The electronics companies would go down. To make all of this make more sense let me give you this example. If there was a town with one food pyramid in the center and everyone would work to get food in the pyramid and at the end of the week, the food would be equally distributed among everyone. What would happen is everyone would think that they don't have to work but they can still take food from the pyramid. Then, once everyone quits work, what happens is there is not enough food in the pyramid to provide for everyone thus causing the town to fall apart. If the US used socialism for a long time, this would eventually happen. Now I am not saying that providing for those who aren't as smart and talented and can't work as hard is a bad thing. We already have ways like charities, food banks, and service organizations that can do things that serve the poor. I think that we should always be helping out these people. But socialism is not the answer. Stealing is not the answer. We can support the poor without stealing. Taking away the opportunity for high achievers to accomplish what they want to do is just not right. For these reasons this is why capitalism should be in place instead of socialism.
Shanor

Con

"Let me start out my argument by saying this. There are many people in this world, some of which are naturally smarter than others, some of which have more of a natural desire to work than others, which is okay" I agree.

"Capitalism really gives people an incentive to work. What Capitalism does is it gives room for people to be high achievers. It gives the smart people a opportunity to have an excellent salary and really what Capitalism does is it gives these high achievers a chance to be really successful." you are dumbing this down to much. Capitalism is much more complex then this.

"Socialism takes away this opportunity. It takes all of the money that people earn and distributes it equally among everyone in the country" That is not what Socialism does, what you are referring too is communism, a different type of government.

"This can run into a couple of problems. One it is stealing. By taking money that does not belong to you from someone else that is stealing, even if it is being given to someone else, it's still stealing." You are looking at morality as if it is black and white, there always is a gray area in between morals. It is considered morally wrong to lie usually, but white lies are considered ok. The same is true for just about everything (though of course worse crimes such as murder or rape would have a MUCH smaller (and to be honest near impossible for some of these crimes) amount of reasons why they would be allowed.) including stealing, but once again, this is not what Socialism entails.

"Another problem with socialism is that it takes away the motivation for the really smart people to work. It gives them the mindset that no matter how hard they work they will make just as much as everyone else. It doesn't give them the desire to work. They can think that they can now not work at all now and still make the same amount of money. And these really smart people can be business owners without the desire to work. These can be people providing employment for other people but now have know desire to work and eventually decide to quit work. Then you have thousands of people without work because these high businesses and high achievers quit work. This is not just high achievers. This is everyone. They can know that they will make the same amount of money as anyone else without working causing the amount of total income of the whole country to go down. This makes the average income per person drop dramatically. And if the true geniuses quit their job amazing inventions will go down. The electronics companies would go down." for one, keep it simple. Just state "People would be less willing to work knowing that they would be paid the same amount." but of course this is not what Socialism is so it does not really matter.

"Now I am not saying that providing for those who aren't as smart and talented and can't work as hard is a bad thing. We already have ways like charities, food banks, and service organizations that can do things that serve the poor. I think that we should always be helping out these people. But socialism is not the answer. Stealing is not the answer. We can support the poor without stealing. Taking away the opportunity for high achievers to accomplish what they want to do is just not right." The problem here is that we should work to get everyone to a good state, not just keep them living, but with true capitalism in place no one would do this. In fact people would actively try to stop this as too make sure they stay on top.

For my main counterargument. I propose that a mix of both capitalism and socialism is what is necessary to create a successful country. This is because both true capitalism and true socialism would cause problems. True capitalism is the idea of "everyone for themselves". A person could create a defective product and sell it without risk to themselves because true capitalism would make it so that anyone can sell what they want without any standards. If it killed someone, it would be that persons fault for buying the product. And I won't go too far into Socialism because it is a very complex subject that would take more characters then I have left to summarize accurately. But the main point of it is too give the workers as much power as the boss. Workers Unions are Socialistic creations. It is needed to make sure that workers have a voice and don't get scammed out of their money by their bosses. So to conclude this round a mix of both Socialism as well as Capitalism are necessary to create a well working society.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Shanor 6 months ago
Shanor
For one, do not trust prager. It is very biased. Two, pure capitalism would benefit the least amount of people. True capitalism means that those who were hurt or killed by a product would get nothing. True capitalism is a lie cheat and steal because you can way of doing it. Socialism smooths out the rough spots.
Posted by dpark3526 6 months ago
dpark3526
I adore capitalism as I feel that it encourages hard work and while socialism promotes laziness. If the government just let the market do its own thing the market could become great and everyone would benefit from it. I get most of my ideas from Prager University on youtube which uses facts and I highly recommend them.
Posted by dpark3526 6 months ago
dpark3526
I adore capitalism as I feel that it encourages hard work and while socialism promotes laziness. If the government just let the market do its own thing the market could become great and everyone would benefit from it. I get most of my ideas from Prager University on youtube which uses facts and I highly recommend them.
Posted by dpark3526 6 months ago
dpark3526
I adore capitalism as I feel that it encourages hard work and while socialism promotes laziness. If the government just let the market do its own thing the market could become great and everyone would benefit from it. I get most of my ideas from Prager University on youtube which uses facts and I highly recommend them.
Posted by Shanor 6 months ago
Shanor
Surgeon, you are basing your assumptions on very specific evidence. I am not going to spend the time on it, but I guarantee you that there are many studies produced that show that Socialism is a God-send. The fact is that both Capitalism and Socialism have failings, the main failing of capitalism being the fact that lying, cheating, and stealing would become synonymous with business. There would be people selling low quality (and quite possibly dangerous) goods to consumers because their are no regulations to follow. Socialism can cause people to create laws that put them in power (though this is communism at this point, not socialism). A mix of both would cause (and does cause knowing America is a mix of both) greater economic success for the low class individuals while only slightly lowering the success of the high class individuals. And just so you know workers unions are part of socialism, so their are some important parts socialism has to play in society.
Posted by Surgeon 6 months ago
Surgeon
Shanor you are just plain wrong. Socialism fails because of the problems highlighted by Mises and Hayek, namely the information and incentive problems. It is these problems that lead to economic chaos, then because people find it hard to admit the failure to establish their Utopia vision, a "strong man" is selected to sort it out, which leads to more chaos and political murder. Just read Hayek"s "Road to serfdom". As a moral system it is also bankrupt requiring individual life plans to be replaced by state plans and paid for out of theft of money from citizens under use of force (taxation).

You cannot fix Socialism as it attempts to replace an impersonal spontaneous and voluntary system (the market mechanism) shared by millions; with a single central forced plan where no one drafting it can know what is in the minds of the many, nor keep pace with the changes. It is poison whether an economy is fully socialist or mixed. In a mixed economic setting, you balance the economy on a knife edge. The natural business cycle of Capitalism is distorted by the actions and collusion of government and the Central Bank (a Central Bank is not a feature of laissez faire Capitalism), creating spectacular busts which are then blamed on an impersonal agent which has no PR machine (Capitalism). Capital is misdirected leading to unemployment. Socialised health services are a disaster of waste and inefficiency. Socialised education is poor quality. People are disincentivised to work and sit on social security, wasting their own talent and starting generational poverty cycles...the list goes on. And all the time the ONLY thing keeping everything else afloat is the wealth created by the Private sector of the economy (Capitalism).

Check the index of economic freedom (how Capitalist a nation is) with the GDP per capita figures (how wealthy people are). There is a direct correlation.
Posted by Shanor 6 months ago
Shanor
Surgeon, you are just plain wrong about that. Socialism has failed everywhere because rather then start with a mixed economy, they attempted true Socialism. Because of this the high ranking officials decided to add in capitalistic laws so that they would still have it good. A mix of both from the start however, would create a environment where the high ranking officials would understand that they cannot be unfair to the workers, but they would have enough power still to make it so they would not act AS power hungry.

WhiteHawk, Their need to be government regulations within the market so that people are not scammed out of their money or killed by the products they buy.
Posted by WhiteHawk 6 months ago
WhiteHawk
The government should just leave the free market alone and let it flourish and grow.
Posted by Surgeon 6 months ago
Surgeon
Soulman, you literally have no idea what you are talking about. Socialism ends up not only keeping the poor, poor. Worse than that it makes them poorer still. You cannot name one successful Socialist expirment, because it has literally failed everywhere. Capitalism is the only proven poverty eliminator, and all economic indicators that I am aware of show that.

Shanor, you are arguing for a mixed Economy. Socialism is the injection of economic poison. Arguing for a mixed economy is akin to saying you prefer a little less poison taken slowly, than a lot taken quickly. Capitalism is the only moral system in that it allows individuals to follow their own voluntary plans, instead of them being replaced by plans forced on the individual by the state.
Posted by Shanor 6 months ago
Shanor
You are both seeing this to extremes, we should find a good middle ground rather then wasting time saying one should not exist.
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