The Instigator
Johanna_silva
Con (against)
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The Contender
FiliusExNihil
Pro (for)
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should the school system be obligatory?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/8/2016 Category: Education
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 296 times Debate No: 95968
Debate Rounds (3)
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Johanna_silva

Con

I am a student in the last year of high school and I've been noticing a lot of imperfections in the education system. Therefore, it shouldn't be imposed to us.
First of all, people who feel obliged will never give their best, which is something really common among students nowadays...I hear a lot of my colleagues saying that they are already sick of it in the first day. Back then, only people who could afford it went to school and it was seen as a privilege, but nowadays everyone has school, it is guaranteed and there is no major motivation to go there since students don't feel privileged.
Another issue is the fact that school does not teach us enough about life so that it could be considered essential. People only learn by themselves, when they truly understand something...and not when they are constantly being stuffed with useless information everyday. You study for a test and a week later you already forgot about what it was. And it is this characteristic that justifies that school should be free to join.
Only people who want to go should go, and they would be glad to be there and not having to deal with those lazy students who only disturb classes. School improves our memory and our paper intelligence, but that is just one sector of our brain and there are many many more that need to be developed. Every person should have the right to chose on which sector to focus most and for those reasons school should not be mandatory.
FiliusExNihil

Pro

Obligatory: required by a legal, moral, or other rule; compulsory.

I will interpret your argument to be that school attendance should not be obligatory.
School attendance should be Obligatory, but it needs some definite changes, and families should have options in regards to how their child is educated.

Public school is one option. Here are some benefits of public school.

-You get to have free school bus transportation
-There are after school programs that your child can join
-There are extra-curricular activities available such as band, choir and theater programs
-You are sure that the teachers are certified as required by the state
-the school is accountable to the state which is of higher authority
-Your child gets to attend school with friends in the neighborhood

Therefore, school is an important part of education, but also a vital tool of the state for socialization and indoctrination of it's future subjects.

"I am a student in the last year of high school and I've been noticing a lot of imperfections in the education system. "
True there are imperfections, but that in no way negates the importance of mandatory school attendance. It is important to realize that as a student there may be some bias to your opinion. Bias in no way invalidates your opinion, but it must be factored in for an honest assessment.

"First of all, people who feel obliged will never give their best, which is something really common among students nowadays...I hear a lot of my colleagues saying that they are already sick of it in the first day."

I disagree. Many students who are successful are obliged to work hard and do their best, perhaps you need a new after-school study group!

" Back then, only people who could afford it went to school and it was seen as a privilege, but nowadays everyone has school, it is guaranteed and there is no major motivation to go there since students don't feel privileged."
This historical reference is fairly vague, but I am curious as to what you mean, please elaborate.

"Another issue is the fact that school does not teach us enough about life so that it could be considered essential. People only learn by themselves, when they truly understand something...and not when they are constantly being stuffed with useless information everyday. You study for a test and a week later you already forgot about what it was. And it is this characteristic that justifies that school should be free to join."

This is true, but many students are not advanced enough to be trusted with learning on their own. The vast majority of students already make poor use of their time, with partying, pre-marital sex and using drugs,

"Only people who want to go should go, and they would be glad to be there and not having to deal with those lazy students who only disturb classes. School improves our memory and our paper intelligence, but that is just one sector of our brain and there are many many more that need to be developed."

I agree. There needs to be stricter disciplinarian policies such as corporal punishment and force if necessary in order to crush unruly students who rebel against the enlightened, noble leftist policies that the state enacts. Political correctness must be drilled into students heads at a young age if we are to advance as a culture, as a society, and as a planet.

The de facto state religion shall be cultural relativism, moral relativism, and tolerance!

The American people will suffer from the violence and bigotry of religious fundamentalists, nihilistic anarchists, and other enemies as long as excellence and compliance are not enforced so that students are allowed to open their minds in peace. A properly educated society is a happy, healthy, productive society.

The rest of the developed world is on board, the U.S. should be too! (This is not a logical fallacy this is an opinion)

"Every person should have the right to chose on which sector to focus most and for those reasons school should not be mandatory."
All over the world, in the E.U. and Japan, for example, students are tracked for aptitude. Successful students do most of their studying at home, as you suggested earlier! The choice shall be made by one's actions. If someone says "I choose to be a doctor." They may have the best intentions, but they may simply not have the aptitude to perform, no matter how hard they work. To suggest otherwise is a 'just world fallacy' Maybe they could become a nurse, an equally important role but with less training & prestige. Maybe not even that, as a nurse also requires significant skill and education, and is a highly competitive field.

School should be Obligatory, for these reasons, but the school system definitely needs some changes.
Debate Round No. 1
Johanna_silva

Con

Thank you for showing your point of view in a clear understandable way. Here is mine:

The school system is too imperfect to be a must for everybody in their young ages and you say "families should have options in regards to how their child is educated" and that's exactly why they should have the power to decide wether their kids should or shouldn't go to school.
We are forced to follow the law, and that is understandable. Without the system of law our society would be a total anarchy, but that wouldn't happen if school stopped being mandatory, so why do we stick so much to it? According to you it has a couple advantages.
In the public school case:

-you get to have free school bus transportation- yes, but people that don't go to school don't need a bus and there could still be free transportation to those who decided to go

-There are after programmes that your child can join- exactly, AFTER programmes which could still be organized for everybody, with or without school

-there are extra curricular activities- the name says it all

You are mentioning positive aspects that have little or nothing to do with the school system, these things happen outside school and can still continue to happen with facultative school. It is mostly in the breaks and in the after school time that kids and teens hang out and socialize, which means that for these things they don't need to be learning eight hours a day, five days a week. School is a good institution that brings people together but after all it's the people that matter, not the system, which means that people can gather up in other ways and other places. Another important thing to mention is bullying and exclusion which can be seen a lot in countries like the USA or Japan. This usually starts in school and some students don't even want to go there anymore because of the fear of getting bullied. That's another reason why people shouldn't be obliged to go to school, Not everyone fits in this system. And yes, in the case of law, not everyone fits in it too, but it has impacts on lives and in the survival of each civilization, contrary to school.

I am not going to discuss the 4th and 5th topics since I am not in the USA, but it is not determining for this debate.

-your child gets to attend school with friends- but then again, they are already friends, they are going to meet anyways since they are neighbours.

I actually think that being a student keeps me in a good position since I know what I am talking about, I am inside the system and I am experiencing it directly. I talk to teachers, other students, parents of students and a lot of people who have different roles in the school system. And I can say that globally people live unsatisfied with it. And if so many people express their insatisfaction everyday why is it so important to keep it mandatory? Let us question it, be open to new possibilities, otherways it it going to be the same as always.

About the school success, I am actually the most successful student in my class and in the course I am studying, having reached almost excelent scores in tests and national exams. And yes, I have worked hard to get here, but why is a student who wants to be a doctor forced to study poetic literature and despite that, even getting judged by how he performs in that subject? If I don't need to learn literature, I should be given the option to study it or not, instead of having to spend hours in studying to have good grades in something I don't like.
If people want to learn about certain fields that will maybe have nothing to do with their future career, they shouldn't have the constant pressure of grades and tests to be good at it, after all they just want to know general things.

I agree that people who want success have to work hard, but they should have the power to chose in what field they want to focus, instead of being obliged to study tons of useless content.

I am an EU student and I know that in the past and even nowadays(but in other parts of the world such as some arabic and african countries) studying is a privilege. In my country, school was only affordable for the rich, because the poor had to work, and therefore people were motivated and grateful because they knew that it was not guaranteed, they were only there because they or their parents wanted it. But in the developed countries nowadays it is obvious that everyone goes to school and because of that school is often devaluated. Students go to school because they must, not because they want to.

It is not school that will stop teens from consuming drugs or drinking, it is their lifestyle, and maybe school even contributes a bit for it, since it generates many stressful situations.

Students don't need to learn on their own, that is not what i am saying. What I am saying is, people who don't want to learn certain things shouldn't be forced to it. Turning the school system into facultative means that every student has the oppurtunity to decide whether he/she wants to study and in which fields. It doesn't mean that everyone will have to quit school.

There is no need to physical punishment, that can be received at home, but I agree that this society abuses a bit on terms of "politically correct", every single action has to be taken according to those two words.

Eventually, everyone should have basic education such as reading and basic math, to give students the tools to decide the best for them. Therefore I agree that the first maybe four years, everyone should go to school or at least prove that they are able to understand basic things but from then the students should be free to decide what fields they are most interested in and if they really want to keep studying. Yes, nowadays our society is technologically more advanced than ever, but that doesn't mean we need don't need farmers or fishers or constructors. And if these people, who have these jobs from the primary and secondary work sectors chose to go further, they can always start to learn additional content later. Since it is facultative, everyone is free to join school whenever and at what age they want, because learning is a life long process that doesn't happen only until our 20's.
FiliusExNihil

Pro

The argument is "should the school system be obligatory?" I believe honestly we both agree on the matter, but the question is framed in a difficult way.

"Eventually, everyone should have basic education such as reading and basic math, to give students the tools to decide the best for them. Therefore I agree that the first maybe four years, everyone should go to school or at least prove that they are able to understand basic things but from then the students should be free to decide what fields they are most interested in and if they really want to keep studying. Yes, nowadays our society is technologically more advanced than ever, but that doesn't mean we need don't need farmers or fishers or constructors. And if these people, who have these jobs from the primary and secondary work sectors chose to go further, they can always start to learn additional content later. Since it is facultative, everyone is free to join school whenever and at what age they want, because learning is a life long process that doesn't happen only until our 20's."

I Agree. I wasn't entirely aware this is what was being argued, but it represents a very mature view. Remember, however, that I signed on to defend compulsory education, not a reformed system. Also, my only experience is with the American school system.

In this voluntary system you propose, it appears education would still be obligatory in the early stages, but become more voluntary later on, for example high school. As an american student, I am jealous of your E.U. education, and I don't understand what you are upset about... the education system in the E.U. is much better than in the U.S. :(

Teens in general are too unruly, and this seems to be a worldwide problem in the west. Strict disciplinarian measures will put to rest many of the problems you are describing, not abolishing the education system entirely, as is what is supposed to be argued.

Hard work and morality require discipline. An immoral society will never be free, as it lacks the discipline to throw off the shackles of oppression.

Make sure to provide valid reasons why an organized, compulsory, government regulated school system should be abolished, and keep in mind the burden of proof is on the one who seeks to abolish an existing system.
Debate Round No. 2
Johanna_silva

Con

I signed on to defend facultative school which is different from banning the school system. That being said I believe that the education system should be more free and not as close minded as it is nowadays.

Yes, the E.U. education is not bad, but it is far from being very good. Countries like Finland or Norway have adopted new school systems and are doing very well, because these countries are more open minded about the issue, not sticking too much to the traditional method.

Compulsory education system should be abolished for all the reasons I stated above, but school should still definetely exist. The only thing is that students would have the possibility to chose between going or not, after knowing the basics. Not everybody fits in this system, and people who don't fit shouldn't be obliged to waste their younger years in something that they never liked or understood.

The government is deciding too soon what to do with our lives. A country is its people and that power should only be given to us.
FiliusExNihil

Pro

Facultative: empowering but not compelling the doing of an act

"Students don't need to learn on their own, that is not what i am saying. What I am saying is, people who don't want to learn certain things shouldn't be forced to it. Turning the school system into facultative means that every student has the oppurtunity to decide whether he/she wants to study and in which fields. It doesn't mean that everyone will have to quit school."

-It is true that students and their parents should have more freedom in regards to what courses their students take, but eliminating compulsory education altogether would undoubtedly create rifts in society, and further enhance economic disparity. If school is not compulsory, and is optional, then it logically follows that education will neither be as free nor as available to all citizens. Teachers will undoubtedly lose jobs as less students attend classes due to economic reasons. In class-divided society, historically there has been an enormous disparity regarding education. In the U.S. summer is a vacation period because historically, rural agricultural children would be unable to attend class due to heavy physical labor at home. My grandfather was a born to a farming family, and if school was not compulsory he would never have received an education. His parents would have prevented him from going to school so he could work at home.
In many developing countries, access to education is available, but only to those who are thought to economically benefit from education, which is inevitably higher level socioeconomic males, exclusively, while others are forced to stay home and do housework, or find employment via unskilled child labor. In the United States, the rich tend to send their children to private schools, while everyone else attends public school. If school is made "facultative" than it stands to reason that all schools will be treated as state-funded "private schools" that are made artificially difficult to attend, and unavailable to the working class child. The working class child, even if they are talented, will receive less opportunity attend class and to benefit from all of the positive aspects of school I listed.
It is important to step outside the point of view of one"s sheltered upper-middle class experience and understand the struggles that other, real people face.
It is not an issue of being "forced to learn" it is an issue of the economic reality of class disparity that exists in most cultures worldwide.
"Compulsory education system should be abolished for all the reasons I stated above, but school should still definetely exist. The only thing is that students would have the possibility to chose between going or not, after knowing the basics. Not everybody fits in this system, and people who don't fit shouldn't be obliged to waste their younger years in something that they never liked or understood."

-Even if lower socio-economic class students struggle with learning concepts due to society conditioning them to believe themselves to be inferior intellectually, they will still be given important information that will help them later on in life, and more will have the opportunity for upward social mobility, especially if they are talented. I don"t want to sound like I"m accusing you of laziness, but the "first world problems" of having to study for a test we don"t want to or struggling to get an A+++ even though it will never affect one"s career, to feel good about oneself and feel intellectually superior, is not important enough to warrant abolishing compulsory school.

"There is no need to physical punishment, that can be received at home, but I agree that this society abuses a bit on terms of "politically correct", every single action has to be taken according to those two words."

-This is both untrue and cruel. Parents should not be allowed to physically abuse their children at home, as they are known for emotionally scarring and even sexually abusing their own children, statistically. Corporal punishment should be reserved for true authority, which is the state. In the U.S. police routinely use corporal punishment to keep unruly adults in line, and are seldom reprimanded for it, so it stands to reason that the same policy should be implemented in public schools. I never argued that parents should be given a license to promote patriarchal culture through physical abuse.

"Since it is facultative, everyone is free to join school whenever and at what age they want, because learning is a life long process that doesn't happen only until our 20's."
-I don"t want to accuse you of having an extremely na"ve view, as you have proven yourself to be quite mature and eloquent, with quite a few good points. However, I disagree with this heartily. I am currently attending a community college, and people from every age group and socioeconomic group attend class together. This works reasonably well, but in my opinion/experience, it creates many problems as the most successful students are the ones who have higher education, and they are the "curve breakers" with an unfair advantage over the less experienced students. They also are known for preying sexually upon the younger students, in return for help studying. In context of a community culture this is alright, but if that was the ENTIRE SCHOOL SYSTEM??? That would be an objectively terrible thing to put young students through from just about any cultural perspective, not to mention that conditions are bad enough in this regard as they are already, it would be a shame to make them worse.

"And yes, I have worked hard to get here, but why is a student who wants to be a doctor forced to study poetic literature and despite that, even getting judged by how he performs in that subject?"

- It is important for educated professionals to have a balanced education, and prove that they are capable of multifaceted learning. If a doctor simply devotes all his time and effort to passing the medical exams, they will outcompete other more balanced prospective doctors, but their problem-solving ability and balanced personality, as well as their sense of ethics will suffer. A balanced professional is well educated and well vetted for their carrier.
Debate Round No. 3
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