The Instigator
alexsupriyadi
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
AlexThunder
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

smoking should be made illegal and not just discouraged

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
alexsupriyadi
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/15/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,175 times Debate No: 40615
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (26)
Votes (1)

 

alexsupriyadi

Pro

as you said, you'd like to debate me on this one. i hereby, challenge you again. i think you've seen most of my points from my last debate with neko. so, you go first. let the fun begin!
AlexThunder

Con

Firstly, thank you for challenging me. This should really be fun. Here we go.

So you say that smoking is bad, and shall be banned completely.

To smokers, cigarettes are their addiction. If they don't smoke, they start to go crazy. Studies have shown that when people don't get the dosage of the substance they are addicted to, there is increase of violence, tone of voice, and can lead to serious health and psychological problems. They don't seem related, do they? Still, a person addicted to cigarettes in extreme cases can go crazy. To test that, if you drink coffee everyday, try not drinking coffee for 7 days. It will start causing headaches, stress and excessive anger. Of course, drugs have worse effects than those of coffee.

Did you ask those people if they want to stop smoking? Some people say yes, some people still love to smoke. You don't have the right to stop them from smoking. It's like me coming to you and saying: you can't drink any alcoholic drink from now on, as it does bad to your organs. You would be mad, and rightfully so.

The answer is not to take it away from them, but warn them of what they will go through, and what the negatives and health repercussions it will have. If they still do it, that means they want to do it and don't care at all. It's their right to smoke.

Actually let me talk about rights and freedom for a second.

We are free. That means you, and i, and everyone else reading this debate is (probably) free. Me, you, can do anything we want, because we have the right to do what we want. And when do our rights stop? They stop when our freedom infringes another man's freedom and rights.

So, by that, anyone can smoke, they have the right to smoke, as long as they don't infringe the rights of others. If you go to a bar, and a smoker is smoking next to you, you have the right to breathe clean air, so you have the right to tell him to go outside, or put it out. You have absolutely no right to stop any man or woman from smoking,

I am waiting for a strong round 2 !!!!
Debate Round No. 1
alexsupriyadi

Pro

First of all, thanks for the accepting the challenge. Alright let"s get to the point.
1)True. Smoking is their addiction it"d be next to impossible to get the heavy smokers off their addiction. But what about the people of tomorrow. If smoking is not banned and all of the supply of cigarette is not completely stopped, those people will actually want to try cigarette. I"m not worrying about those heavy smokers(well, a little bit) but I"m more concerned about the next generation. you said that if they don"t smoke, they"ll go crazy. True but do you want this to continue. That"s why it should be stopped now so that the next generation won"t go crazy as they haven"t even tried cigarette. prevention is better than cure.
2) when you said "Did you ask those people if they want to stop smoking? Some people say yes, some people still love to smoke. You don't have the right to stop them from smoking. It's like me coming to you and saying: you can't drink any alcoholic drink from now on, as it does bad to your organs. You would be mad, and rightfully so.". the answer is no I haven"t asked them. Yes it"s totally none of their business. But it totally becomes theirs(the government, local people etc") when they start on disturbing people with their smoke. Not only will they disturb them but it will have a negative effect on the environment. Not to mention the disease caused by those smoke are incurable. So, did they(non-smokers) get those diseases because of their own actions? Of course not! They got all those diseases because of the smokers and because of them, they need to pay for their hospital fees, which is a hell a lot, their life span will be reduced and all other negative effects. Because of one smoker, more smoker will be there(influenced) and because of them, thousands of people will be harmed. The cycle will continue for as long smokers are there. The only way to stop this cycle is to ban cigarette and stop the supply permanently.
3) as you know, our resources are depleting rapidly and lately, the government have been trying so hard to conserve. That"s why there are those billboards and signs about recycle and all. how long do you think it will last? If cigarette manufacturer are still there, wasting their resources on making toxic, polluting the lake, rivers, increasing the rate of resource depletion even more and increasing their rate of production every day, harming the lives of even more people every day, increasing the rate of the destruction of ozone layer. This have a negative effect on every single thing on earth. I can list down all the negative effect but I got to go with my parents right now.
4) also, from your last paragraph, you said that If I met a smoker in the bar, I could just tell him to go outside. And I presume that the summary for the first paragraph is that smokers have bad temper. Do you think such people with such negative attitudes and behavior would want to listen to a nobody like me? The only thing I"ll get is a fight/a quarrel at the very least. Also, they can"t get outside because they came to the bar in the first place for a reason you know.
AlexThunder

Con

Thanks for the reply. I apologize for my late response, i had a busy day.

"True. Smoking is their addiction it"d be next to impossible to get the heavy smokers off their addiction. But what about the people of tomorrow. If smoking is not banned and all of the supply of cigarette is not completely stopped, those people will actually want to try cigarette" I can see what you mean. It may seem like a good idea to stop the production of cigarettes, but it's not. There might be people that love to smoke, and will want to try a cigar, but you can only warn them of the negative impacts it will have on their health. After all, it's their cigar, their lungs, their health, their life. By stopping the production of cigarettes, you are taking away their freedom to smoke. You have to convince them, that smoking is bad. But never, ever forbid them to do as they please. It's their right to smoke and you can't stop it. Imagine me coming and saying that we should ban football from being played in schools to protect the next generation. Kids all around the world playing football get broken knees, shattered legs, ankles, surfical trauma, heat stroke and concussions. From 1931 to 2007 665 kids died from injuries they suffered playing football. Shall we ban football too, in order too protect those kids from getting harmed?

"you said that if they don"t smoke, they"ll go crazy. True but do you want this to continue?" No, but it's irrelevant. Just because you, or i don't want it to continue doesn't mean that we can make a smoker stop smoking by forcing it, just as you would never stop a drug dealer from selling drugs by banning them.

"But it totally becomes theirs(the government, local people etc") when they start on disturbing people with their smoke. Not only will they disturb them but it will have a negative effect on the environment. Not to mention the disease caused by those smoke are incurable. "
As i said, if they disturb anyone with the smoke, you have the right to tell them to put it off, or go somewhere else. Don't get me started on the environment argument you said. Some diseases caused by smoking are preventable and sometimes even curable.

"So, did they(non-smokers) get those diseases because of their own actions? Of course not! They got all those diseases because of the smokers and because of them, they need to pay for their hospital fees, which is a hell a lot, their life span will be reduced and all other negative effects"
Yes, it's their fault they sat next to a smoker and didn't do anything about it. You have the ability to walk out a bar because there are smokers, but when you choose to stay, it's your fault. Then you say because of smokers they need to pay for hospital fees. Do you ask from the butcher to pay your hospital fees when you go to get that big worm that lives in your stomach removed, because the meat the butcher sold to you was probably the cause? No. It's your choice to get meat from the butcher, so don't complain.

"Because of one smoker, more smoker will be there(influenced) and because of them, thousands of people will be harmed. The cycle will continue for as long smokers are there. The only way to stop this cycle is to ban cigarette and stop the supply permanently."
You make it sound like it's an super deadly disease that nobody can be safe from unless we drop that ban hammer on the cigarette factories. It's not that bad. You get the chance not to get influenced by any smoker at all, by going to smoker-free bars, pubs or cafes, or just staying away from a smoker. It's not that hard. Thousands will be harmed? Alcohol does harm too, shall we ban it? Kids watching a match on TV will get influenced and will want to play football, but they get injured. Shall we ban football?

"as you know, our resources are depleting rapidly and lately, the government have been trying so hard to conserve. That"s why there are those billboards and signs about recycle and all"
Recycling is not resource-conserving. Please do some research before you bring up recycling. Recycling costs as much as 8 billions dollars to the US Government, money which could be put in good use instead of being thrown away.

" If cigarette manufacturer are still there, wasting their resources on making toxic, polluting the lake, rivers, increasing the rate of resource depletion even more and increasing their rate of production every day, harming the lives of even more people every day, increasing the rate of the destruction of ozone layer. This have a negative effect on every single thing on earth. I can list down all the negative effect"
I would like you to explain your thinking here please. Explain to me how you think it works.

"also, from your last paragraph, you said that If I met a smoker in the bar, I could just tell him to go outside. And I presume that the summary for the first paragraph is that smokers have bad temper. Do you think such people with such negative attitudes and behavior would want to listen to a nobody like me? The only thing I"ll get is a fight/a quarrel at the very least. Also, they can"t get outside because they came to the bar in the first place for a reason you know."
No. Smokers don't have a bad temper. They can have a bad mood or temper if they don't get the dosage. And since you are talking about a pub where they are smoking, their temper should be their normal, with no effects from the cigarette. Smokers don't differ from you or me. They are normal human beings, and they can have a bad temper or be really friendly. It depends if he will hear you or not, but it's your right to breathe free air, you can tell him to go somewhere else. If he doesn't do anything, you walk up to the guy that owns the bar and let him know, and he will take care of him. Unless you are in a bar that smoking inside is allowed, you will probably get what you want. Most of them are kind enough to just say ok, and put it off. Of course, they might light it up again after 15 minutes, not because they are bad and want to piss you off, but because they so badly want to smoke and forget that you are there. If they came to a bar and they smoke inside, you are in the wrong bar. Because that is a smoker bar. You just leave and go to another bar. It's really that simple.

Thank you for round 2, please don't forget at round 3 to explain your argument. Thanks.
Debate Round No. 2
alexsupriyadi

Pro

alexsupriyadi forfeited this round.
AlexThunder

Con

AlexThunder forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
alexsupriyadi

Pro

Thank you for your reply and sorry for my late response. I didn"t forfeit the round, I"m having exams this month so I can"t open any electronic devices this month except for weekends. Oh and I"m not going to quote everything you said. other wise, I won"t have enough space to post my arguments.
1)"it"s their right to smoke".
Answer= What right does they have for spreading diseases everywhere?.
2) football is totally different from smoking. As I said, people smoke out of their own risk and anyone do not have the right to take away what is rightfully theirs IF it doesn"t bothers/affect them at all. Meaning, they have the right to take away what is rightfully theirs if it does bothers/affect them. Now, does the players in football injure/affect the audience/spectators/anyone nearby? No. the only one getting hurt is the players that too are not some major accidents that may lead to death and is not as frequent as the ones caused by cigarrete. It encourages sport, entertaining and at the same time is a quick get rich scheme. If people want to play boxing, hockey, you name it, fine. As long as they DO NOT take away other people"s life along with it. If people want to smoke, fine. As long as they DO NOT affect the others in anyway. Now, can the smokers prevent this from happening? Even if they really, really want to, they can"t. they are constantly harming people every time they smoke.
3) "Just because you, or i don't want it to continue """..
Answer= can those consuming illegal drugs stop the government from banning it just because they don"t want it to happen? Of course not. we can stop it but not by force, but legally.
4)" As i said, if they disturb anyone with the smoke"""
Answers= scroll up to round one and look at point number 4
5) "Yes, it's their fault they sat next to a smoker """..
Answer= 1. I"m not obliged to walk out just because some jerk is bothering me with their smoke. I may have a business in the bar and why would I cancel the business just because one person is smoking.
2.yes, I"ll definitely ask the butcher to pay my hospital fees, any possible damage he may cause to me in the future and to give me a full refund on the meat that I bought from him. This is exactly why food inspections are there and if some worms are found, the restaurant will be closed immediately by the authorities. And if victims are there, they have the right to sue the restaurant for giving them worms. such cases were there in the past and it finally resulted with the butcher losing and their restaurants closed.
3. it is my choice to get the meat from the butcher but do I have any idea whether or not it"s filled with worms? no. let me ask you a question. Say you"ve just bought a brand new kitchen set, big Tv, etc" that summed up to $100,000. And let"s just say that it turns out that everything that you"ve just bought doesn"t work at all. The tv and the oven was nothing more but a toy. Do you or do you not have the right to sue them for selling you toys at the price of $100, 000? Will you let them take away your money in exchange for those junks?
6) "You make it sound like it's a super deadly disease """
Answer= 1. Yes it IS a super deadly disease and it IS bad. Our parents keep on telling us to stay away from smokers since we"re at the age of 6 but still some of them smoke and why? Because of their friends.
2.about football so you can just scroll up and see. Also, by watching football, children get inspired and they actually want to play football, it"s good thing. They now have a dream of being an amazing football player that can get tons of big money in one play instead of not having a dream at all. The highest paying athletic team in the world is FC Barcelona and has an average salary of $8,680,569 a year, with each player earning about $166,934 a WEEK!
3)Oh yes, you"re right. It"s not thousands but to be more precise, millions. I"ll give you a piece of article from the world health organization about the number of deaths caused by heart diseases (one of the consequences of inhaling smoke) to support my previous statement and to tell you that the number of death caused by Tabaco, which is the main ingredient in cigarette, Is way more than the number of death caused by alcohol.
The top 10 causes of death
________________________________________

SMOKING A LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH
HEALTH AUTHORITY WARNING
TOBACCO " 19,019
ALCOHOL " 2831
MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS " 1,731
ILLEGAL DRUGS " 863
MURDERS " 203
Smoking causes more deaths than murder, illegal drugs, motor vehicle accidents, and alcohol combined. Smokers not only live a shorter lives, they also live years with disabling health problems. You CAN quit smoking.
Major causes of death
Q: How many people die every year?
In 2011, an estimated 55 million people died worldwide.
Q: What kills more people: infectious diseases or noncommunicable diseases?
Noncommunicable diseases were responsible for two-thirds of all deaths globally in 2011, up from 60% in 2000. The four main NCDs are cardiovascular diseases, cancers, diabetes and chronic lung diseases. Communicable, maternal, perinatal and nutrition conditions collectively were responsible for a quarter of global deaths, and injuries caused 9% of all deaths.
Q: Are cardiovascular diseases the number one cause of death throughout the world?
Yes, cardiovascular diseases killed nearly 17 million people in 2011, that is 3 in every 10 deaths. Of these, 7 million people died of ischaemic heart disease and 6.2 million from stroke.
Q: WHO(World Health Organization) often says that smoking is a top cause of death. Where does tobacco use affect these causes of death?
Tobacco use is a major cause of many of the world"s top killer diseases " including cardiovascular disease, chronic obstructive lung disease and lung cancer. In total, tobacco use is responsible for the death of about 1 in 10 adults worldwide. Smoking is often the hidden cause of the disease recorded as responsible for death.
7) "Recycling is not resource-conserving""
Answer= you know, you got a point. I got the word wrong because I didn"t do the research. It was supposed to be reuse and reduce. I thought all three are the same. I have nothing to say about this.
8) "I would like you to explain "".
Answer= gladly. From where are cigarettes produced/made? Factories. Do factories produce smoke, waste, toxic and harmful substances? Yes. Where will they dump this to? The rivers, seas, lakes and the air of course! Is this harmful for the environment? Very .Does smoke increases the rate of the destruction of ozone layer? According to science and geography, yes. What are effects of the destruction of ozone layer? Reductions in stratospheric ozone levels will lead to higher levels of UVB reaching the Earth's surface. The sun's output of UVB does not change; rather, less ozone means less protection, and hence more UVB reaches the Earth. Studies have shown that in the Antarctic, the amount of UVB measured at the surface can double during the annual ozone hole. Another study confirmed the relationship between reduced ozone and increased UVB levels in Canada during the past several years.
Effects on Human Health
Laboratory and epidemiological studies demonstrate that UVB causes nonmelanoma skin cancer and plays a major role in malignant melanoma development. In addition, UVB has been linked to cataracts -- a clouding of the eye"s lens. All sunlight contains some UVB, even with normal stratospheric ozone levels.

hey, i'm going to post the rest of my arguments as a comment. i do not have enough space to post all of them. so, go to comment and read it.
AlexThunder

Con

AlexThunder forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
26 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TetsuRiken 3 years ago
TetsuRiken
I couldn't help my self.
Posted by AlexThunder 3 years ago
AlexThunder
:D Thanks TetsuRiken
Posted by TetsuRiken 3 years ago
TetsuRiken
Go Alex
Posted by AlexThunder 3 years ago
AlexThunder
I will just say 1 last thing, and i will leave it to the voters. When i say 665 people died playing football, they are all kids under the age of 16. I know kids that are under the age of 16 and smoke, but smoking is not going to kill them instantly, while in football, where you just go there to have fun, you end up with a broken ankle, knee or even lying dead on the ground. It's not fun now, is it?
Posted by alexsupriyadi 3 years ago
alexsupriyadi
10)first of all the article that you gave me was about effect of smoking ON NON SMOKERS. That too it was mentioned the number of deaths in your article. PLEASE refer to the article that I gave you about ALL the harmful effects of smoking on human health, plants, marine ecosystem, biogeochemical waste, and materials. Not once have you ever responded from that.
11)" I am tempted, but that doesn't necessarily mean that i will try it. I CHOSE not to try it, and thats what kids do too." My dear, it"s time for you to wake up. If your theory is correct then smokers will cease to exist as the next generation only be tempted to try it but will never want to try it. If your theory is correct then criminals, cheaters, liars will never be there. MAYBE YOU will choose NOT to try it but doesn"t mean that the others will do exactly as you do. Everyone learn from someone. Successful people got influenced from good people back when they were still young and criminals got influenced from bad people back when they were still young.
I"m still waiting for the rest of your respond on some of my MOST IMPORTANT points(the article).
Posted by alexsupriyadi 3 years ago
alexsupriyadi
8) you did say that the food was bad. You said," Do you ask from the butcher to pay your hospital fees when you go to get that big worm that lives in your stomach removed, because the meat the butcher sold to you was probably the cause? No. It's your choice to get meat from the butcher, so don't complain.". he would give me a full refund and such cases have been made. Let me remind you that all the examples that I"ve given to you so far have already happened. My examples are based on the things that happened in the past. Your examples are mostly made from your own mind, it has never HAPPENED. being allergic to the food she ordered is a totally different case. Why are you changing your example every time? If she"s allergic, she very well knows that she can get sick by eating the food but the restaurant doesn"t know that. It"s her fault. But if she"s not allergic and the restaurant uses some kind of dangerous substance, chemicals, food etc.. then the restaurant is to be blamed as the girl doesn"t know about the food but the restaurant very well knows that they are selling such harmful products. I know this may sound very stupid even I know that this is stupid but I"m going to give you an example of such similar cases(about the girl being allergic to cheese) that has ever happened before. Check this site out http://consumerist.com...
Tell me this, did she sue star buck, who spilled the coffee, and who was the winner? even to such stupid example that you gave me, still such cases were there. This proves that even someone can sue a restaurant for such a thing. Let alone the restaurant serving bad foods.
9) YOU WOULD?????!! But I thought according to YOUR principle you won"t since it was your choice to buy it from whoever it is just like the example that you gave me on that butcher. Have you finally agreed with me on this point?
He might put it off and he might not. Mostly might not.
Posted by alexsupriyadi 3 years ago
alexsupriyadi
5) that WILL stop them from using. Tell me, how can they smoke when there are no cigarette? by stopping them legally means, banning cigarette and stopping all the supply for cigarette. "It's my life and i make the rules of my own living, not the police, not the Government, and not you..." you know I"m starting to get tired of responding to this line. You"ve given me this same point 3 times and I"ve given you my answer 3 times with proper explanations. This time, I"m going to give an explanation the way you do to me. Alright, it"s your life is it not and it"s my life is it not? Not the police nor the government right? Then can I just kill all the people in this world, take what I want whenever I want, rape anyone I want without getting arrested and suffering the consequences of it? I make the rules right? IF your theory is correct, then this site, the police, the government will never have existed as everyone will do as they please. Rules are there to protect us!
6) you have covered that point but you"ve never responded to the points that I"ve made about that in round 2. You repeated the same point in round 1 and 2. And in round 3 I was indirectly asking for a reply instead of a repetition. I don"t have much to say about this.
7) yes you can. Can the police put a criminal to a death sentence just because he raped a few women? Likewise, you can force someone to leave because his behavior or his smoking bothers me. I do not agree about that point you made about the outfit though. See point number 2 in this round. I"m going to give you an example. Try and party all night, turn on booming noises, and your neighbor can call the police for the disturbing the harmony of the neighborhood. Even you"ve seen this happening in some movies right?
Posted by alexsupriyadi 3 years ago
alexsupriyadi
Typing mistake. It"s it thought not I"m thought.
3)665 people died in 75 YEARS. That means around 8 PEOPLE die every YEAR. In that very same year, football will benefit 265 MILLION PEOPLE. That means only 0.000003% of those people playing football die every year and the rest 99.999997% gets paycheck. In fact, I DO NOT think that they all died PURELY because of playing football. The consequence of playing football is very, very, very low compared to the benefit it gives.
4) you don"t have proof that secondhand smoking doesn"t cause ANY disease, no one does. If you do, please mention it. In fact the article that you gave me clearly mentioned that it does cause disease so it appears that the one having proof is me.
I believe you"ve never responded to the reply that I gave you about someone walking away from the bar and instead you kept on repeating the same line 3 times.
"And how are they constantly hurting someone by smoking. They could be smoking alone. They could be smoking near people that don't mind." Have you ever seen anyone smoking in the toilet, corridor, graveyard, places where there is only him and him alone. And smoking near people that don"t mind will still harm their bodies you know. Just because they don"t mind their smoke doesn"t mean that they won"t get any harmful effect from it. I"ve given you a whole lot of article in the previous round about this. Pease refer to that and give me your respond from that because I believe you haven"t responded to that.
Posted by alexsupriyadi 3 years ago
alexsupriyadi
Alright, this will be my last reply and after that let"s leave it to the voters since there will only be 5 rounds and we"ve lost 2.First of all, I believe I"ve given you lots and lots of points in the previous round and you haven"t really responded to all the points I"ve given to you including and especially about all those articles that I"ve given you. So I won"t have much to say in this round.
1) according to the site you just gave me, it does. It clearly says that about 3000 non smokers in America got involved every year right? That is every year. And diseases like cancer will only start on showing it"s effect after years. So try multiplying that number by a few years and add that number by the number of diseases that those people have managed to spread in those few years and multiply it again by the total number of smoking countries in the world. You are talking about the effect caused in a short time. Of course the effect of smoking won"t CLEARLY be seen in a short time. I was talking about long term effects just like most articles does. Just read any article about global warming, smoking etc" each and everyone of them will always talk about long term effect and no short term effect. Because the effects will be seen later and by the time we"ve actually experienced the effects people will start on regretting it.
2)First of all, wearing a shirt is totally different from playing football, soccer, hockey etc" when you play football, is it possible for you to play all by yourself? No. which means, other people will be involved. You see what I mean. But, when you wear a shirt, do you need the others to wear it WITH you? Absolutely no. no one is involved during the process. Likewise, in playing and smoking, other people get involved in the process. Now, have you ever heard of ANYONE suing ANYONE for a man wearing a pink shirt. However, not wearing a shirt at all is a totally different case, it"s against the law( I"m thought you're going to give me such examples)
Posted by AlexThunder 3 years ago
AlexThunder
Number 8) It's bad, but your choice. Again, i've stated and have evidence on it, that second hand smoking has not been proven as harmful yet. We still don't know. The scientific world at least. And its a good thing that parents dont want their kids exposed to second hand smoke and are not taking any chances, but we dont have to get all crazy about it. After all, people don't get influenced by the smoke and get the need to smoke, but are forced by peers in an early age to try it. And again, its their choice to smoke or not smoke. See where i'm getting at?
Number 9) Kids are taught to play football by their parents and teachers. They don't necessarily copy what they see on TV. And after all, who doesn't like playing a game and making tons of money. What you are trying to say is that kids see their peers or parents smoking and want to try it too, so they later on become smokers. *Stretches* Here we go. Kids indeed see people smoking and are interested in experiencing the feel of smoking. I am at a young age and i am tempted to try a cigar, just one puff to see how horrible it actually is. I am tempted, but that doesn't necessarily mean that i will try it. I CHOSE not to try it, and thats what kids do too. What we should do is not really discourage them from trying one, but warning them of the consequences that smoking has and advising them not to. Its their life after all, and they can do as they please in the barriers of equal rights and the law. (I am talking about teens at the age of 16-18, don't let your 10 year old kid try a cigar without taking full responsibility). Anyways, its their choice. It's sad i know. I see kids my age and younger ones smoking and i feel bad about them, but they can do what they want, its their choice. Again, i am kind of tempted to try a cigar because its a normal human feeling. The feeling of wanting to experience the unknown, a new experience. But i choose not to, because i have total control over me, and not you or anyone. <<Part 4>>
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Gohan12345 3 years ago
Gohan12345
alexsupriyadiAlexThunderTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Both did well but pro I agreed with