The Instigator
Makaveli83
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
mfigurski80
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

something can not be true and false at the same time.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Makaveli83
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/7/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,462 times Debate No: 77363
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (33)
Votes (1)

 

Makaveli83

Pro

A far superior individual stated something cannot be true and false at the same time. A truth is a truth. A falsity is a falsity. Seeing as I clearly have a low iq I must agree with this as my opinion is merely an opinion. The individual was clearly telling the truth so it must be impossible to disagree with this statement.

You being the con will clearly be unable to argue against the statement that - something can not be true and false at the see time.
mfigurski80

Con

I would like to thank my partner for creating this debate, and I thankfully accept. I will be CON, arguing that "statements can be both true and false at the same time".

Since BoP is obviously mine, I will present my points in the first round to not waste time.

RESOLUTION: "Something cannot be both true and false at the same time"

Some basic rules to keep the debate friendly an prevent subversive tactics from either side.

RULES:
(1) No Trolling
(2) No Kritiks (challenging basic assumptions: Ex. "The government doesn't exist")
(3) No deconstructional and offensive statements in neither the comments nor the actual posts.
(4) No arguments may be presented in the final round.
(5) No changes to the debate's structure or rules can be made without public consent from both debators.

Any offense will signify the forfeiture of the entire debate, unless a middleground is agreed upon by both debators.


DEFINITIONS:
True - "in accordance with fact or reality"
False - "not in accordance with fact or reality"

All definitions influenced by Google.

*END OF SETUP*

POINT ONE:
A paradox is the general term used for statements that are both true and false. For example, the famous "Liar" Paradox is as follows:

"This statement is false"

You can already see what I'm going at here. If the statement is a truth, then it is also false, making it both at the same time. But if it is a falsity, is is also a truth. Same effect.
Need some more paradoxes?

The Pinnochio paradox: "What if Pinnochio said 'My nose will be growing now'?"

The Card paradox: "The next statement is true. The previous statement is false."


POINT TWO:


Please tell me that this isn't true and false at the same time.

POINT THREE:
Schrodinger's Cat is a famous illustration showing the principals of quantum indeterminacy.

We take a live cat, and put in in a steel box along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. Hydrocynaic acid is, as suggested by the name, an acid, and is lethally dangerous for the cat should the vial be broken. Now, the mechanism attached to the vial will strike the glass with a hammer, which releases the acid onto the cat, if one single atom decays during the experiment.

The steel box is closed, and there aren't any windows. We can't see anything inside, so we don't know if the cat is dead, the vial has been broken, or that the substance has started decaying. It could go either way. We are, at that point, in a state of quantum indeterminacy. The cat would be both dead and alive from our perspective, according to quantum law.

There you have it. The statement "the cat is dead" in that situation would be both true and false.
No animal rights comments please.

(1 https://en.wikipedia.org...)
(2 http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com...)
(3 http://whatis.techtarget.com...)


Anyway, thanks again to my partner, and to all viewers.
Debate Round No. 1
Makaveli83

Pro

Thankyou for the response it was well written and has some valid points. As you are aware I have only put this debate forward to show another individual that you can be both true and false at the same time. Due to this i find it hard to counter as I agree with what you have put forward.

I don't use sources. I'm not a reader so I have no terminology I can use. Subjective and objective truths and falsity have no meaning to me. I can only put forward my views which are based upon my nature and my experiences.

First I will use your definitions of true and false.you definitions being about fact and reality. My problem here is your liar paradox is neither fact or have any value in reality. I'm sure there is a term out there to define this but I do not know it. My point is its a phrase of no meaning so is neither true or false. Its just pointless. In fact that applies to all step one paradox.

Step 2 the written word which appears to state true and false again is meaningless. Though it is both true and false it can easily be argued that it is neither true or false just ink on paper.

Step 3 the cat. If it is alive it is alive. If it is dead it is dead. It is not both alive and dead. Thats similar to if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise. Well yes of course it does.

If something is true then it can only be true otherwise there can be no truth. If there is no truth then everything is merely an opinion which we use other people's writings to justify our stand point.
mfigurski80

Con

Well, hope your friend is convinced enough.


1. My Liar paradox, as well as the ones listed afterwards, is simply and illustration of reality. I may have breviated them for the sake of remaining lazy. If you'd like, I could create a scene in which they may or may not be truth or falsity.

Suppose you get a letter today, and it reads as follows:
"Dear cousin,
I'm sending you this letter because I am onto a mystery. It seems that there are people smuggling stuff into New York. I've already found the truth, the second letter will be completely truthful and show you everything. I'm confident that something is up, just trust me."

Then the mailman stops you and says he forgot to add on another letter.
"Dear Cousin,
Sorry, I was wrong. Ignore the previous letter, it's simply a mess of lies. All of it. Sorry for the excitement I caused."

Given that you recieved them moments apart, what would you think about this? Did your cousin really find a mystery, or no? They cross-reffer, and they were obviously sent at the same time, so there cannot be any talk of him changing his mind. Give me a truth factor for either of the letters, and I will show you how it simply won't work.
The only answer is that only PARTS of these letters is true, and the rest is false. Therfore, it is a combination of both, and is TRUE and FALSE at the same time.

Or...

Suppose you get a card with words printed on either side. The first side says "All of the next statement is true", while the flip side says "All of the other statement is false". Determine a truth value for either. They are a combination of both truth and falsity, therefore they are both true and false

2. In his second rebuttal, my opponent stated that "it is both true and false". Because the very word appears subjectively as either true, or false, and it's actual truth value doesn't matter.


3. Yet one does not know if the cat is dead, or alive. The statement "The cat is dead" has a roughly 50% chance of being true, and a 50% chance of being false. Because reality is presumed from the beholder, we really have no bearing on wether or not the cat is dead or alive. And so, summing up both probabilities, the cat is both dead, and alive.

Besides, you are arguing agaist the existence of quantum mechanics. True, one doesn't necessarily have to accept the theories, but they do explain a lot of different things.
Debate Round No. 2
Makaveli83

Pro

It could be argued that the writer is delusional, medically or through a substance. Could have multi peronality. This could allow both letters to be true or both letters to be false. This again means the letters have no point and are meaningless. The second letter he received may not have been the intended second letter the cousin was going to write. Perhaps people found him and made him to send the letter saying it was a lie. What the senders knows and what the receiver reads and believes will be 2 different things. So the truth would still be the truth just unknown to the reader. A false truth is not a truth.

If a word can be read as true or false doesn't not make it true or false. If I write life and death to make them.both look like each other that does not make anything alive and dead at the same time. It's just ink. So it's neither true or false. If want to break it down you could say it's neither words as the letters used have been altered from the alphabet look to adapt your point. They are not true letters.

The cat may be dead. It may be alive. This is true. However if it is alive it's alive. If it's dead it is dead. Just because we do not know whether it's alive or dead doesn't take away from the truth.

Quantum mechanics are just another new way for us to understand certain things. Is it the answer to everything of course not. There is so much out there that we are unaware of.

The word true exists for a reason. If something can also be false it surely was never true. If there was any form of falsity it is not true. True can only be true. False can only be false.

You could argue maths teaches 2 negatives make a positive do 2 wrongs make 1 right. Opinions can be true and false at the same time but opinions aren't true or false they're just a thoughts. For example Hitler is a bad man. Some will find that to be true some will find that to be false. Would an ant think it true? No the ant wouldn't know any different. Same as how we are when understanding the universe, what it consists of, why it's here, how it works. How can any human say this is true or this is false. The truth will still be truth and false will be false.

Sorry for rambling. Hope it makes sense. Got baby tonight and she take up a lot of my attention. To sum this all up though of course somethings can be true and false at the same time. I think the only valid point I can put forward against that was- a truth alcan only be a truth otherwise it was never true to begin with.
mfigurski80

Con

mfigurski80 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
33 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Makaveli83 1 year ago
Makaveli83
I'd simply say everything is true and false at the same time. Everything we perceive to be true is in fact false. What we see is different depending on the light we see. A yellow flower under different scales can be black. It is true that it's yellow as that's how we see it but I'm reality the colour will be also not be yellow. The sky looks blue but it's not actually blue so it's true but false. Its true that as a human I am different to a wooden table but it's also false as I am made with same atoms that make the table.

Truth and false are man made so I'm essence neither are true and neither are false
Posted by Deb-8-A-Bull 1 year ago
Deb-8-A-Bull
I keep thinking battery or belief . Hey Maka . I just had a quick look over all the comments . Maybe you said you know one. Do you think you can send me a msg. Maybe if not its all good. ( I stuck my toung on the freezer once. apart from it hurting it felt hot but it was cold . Maybe feelings can be true and false .) If you pick up some dry ice. It burns so bad. Like when ya cold you want to get warm. Put a jumper on. When ya hot you want to get cool cold. So you go swimming or sit in the air con . Put a red hot coal in your hand , you want to get it off and put your hand in water. Put a chunk of dry ice in your hand you want to flick it off and put your hand in water. So maybe pain or feelings can be true and false at the same time. I like this response, it can be worded better . Then I explained it . LOL I can't spell . If anything its getting a little more plausible. No not feelings cause it feels like 2 pm but it's 12. I'm going to lock in ( PAIN ) .
Posted by Deb-8-A-Bull 1 year ago
Deb-8-A-Bull
My interview with the police it was a statement . And it contained true and false information . Your recorded voice on a tape . Your perception of someone . A phone call . I also really like the sun causes skin cancer one . Um fake gold . Pretending to cry. Stories you tell your mates . Like yeah she was so hot . Story's. Fake ID. Stars look close. Your eyesight or hearing . What about dreams . I've gone to far hey? Or or maybe something can't be true and false at the same time . I'm going to take a week off this . My silly brain reads that can't be true and false same time sentence. But it will not let me agree with it. It won't let me belive in dinosaurs . Talk with ya in a week. Good game.
Posted by Makaveli83 1 year ago
Makaveli83
Saying true or false does not make somethin true or false. Me saying the sky is pink does not make the sky pink.

The pricing of $1.99 was true just you were unable to get change so it cost you $1.99 and you lost out on a cent. If you had purchased enough bars for all the cents to add to $1.99 it wouldn't cost you any extra. I'd advise you to go to consumer rights lol.
Posted by Deb-8-A-Bull 1 year ago
Deb-8-A-Bull
me mate Johny just come over for a couple of beers . I said to him on the count of three .say the word " false. " and me on the count of three I'll say" true " I yelled out to me missus . Come out to the shed . I waved my hand up and down 1 up and down 2. And on the third wave . My mate yelled out false and I yelled out true. After stuffing around with my blonde missus she said . I heard john yell false and me yell true . I asked when did we do this . She replied the same time. So she heard the words true and false yelled at the same time. She is good sometimes so while I was down the road I got here a chocolate bar one of the caramel Mars bars. It said on special $1.99. We don't have 1 cent coins in aussie land . I handed over 2 bucks and waited . Then waited then waited . She ask me if there was anything else . It was advertised at $1.99 but it cost me $2 . I also have a true or false questionnaire for you. The answer to this will a mixture of true and false responses.
Posted by Deb-8-A-Bull 1 year ago
Deb-8-A-Bull
me mate Johny just come over for a couple of beers . I said to him on the count of three .say the word " false. " and me on the count of three I'll say" true " I yelled out to me missus . Come out to the shed . I waved my hand up and down 1 up and down 2. And on the third wave . My mate yelled out false and I yelled out true. After stuffing around with my blonde missus she said . I heard john yell false and me yell true . I asked when did we do this . She replied the same time. So she heard the words true and false yelled at the same time. She is good sometimes so while I was down the road I got here a chocolate bar one of the caramel Mars bars. It said on special $1.99. We don't have 1 cent coins in aussie land . I handed over 2 bucks and waited . Then waited then waited . She ask me if there was anything else . It was advertised at $1.99 but it cost me $2 . I also have a true or false questionnaire for you. The answer to this will a mixture of true and false responses.
Posted by Makaveli83 1 year ago
Makaveli83
Thanks for posting! Has been fun
Posted by Deb-8-A-Bull 1 year ago
Deb-8-A-Bull
OK ok . Give me a couple more days . Good game good game.
Posted by Makaveli83 1 year ago
Makaveli83
Everything on the Internet is man made so is merely an opinion. For example 2pac is the best rapper. To me that's true, for you it may be false so again it is either true or false depending on the individual.

The world is flat. That used to be seen as true even though was false but fundamentally even though it was thought to be true it's was false. Opinions aren't truth. Facts are merely opinions also.

There is a God. It could be true but could be false but our opinions on that aren't important. If there is a heaven then it's true if there isn't then it's false, it's can't be true or false.
Posted by Deb-8-A-Bull 1 year ago
Deb-8-A-Bull
I have a question ? Has every single thing you have seen or information you have read of the Internet . Has it been 100% true .? Has everything you seen and the information you have read on the Internet . Has it been 100% false.? The answer to them questions is NO hey . So sum up the information you have gathered and things that you have seen on the Internet.?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by TheJuniorVarsityNovice 2 years ago
TheJuniorVarsityNovice
Makaveli83mfigurski80Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: ff....just so you know the resolution is objectively false....a thing cannot be both here and not here, but for instance an individual can be both a male and a female right?