super man would stomp goku
Debate Rounds (5)
Name: Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman
Origin: DC Comics
Age: 40 - 50 years old
Powers and Abilities: Super strength, super speed, flight, heat vision, ice breath, X-ray vision, a massive array of superhuman senses, energy absorbtion, Torquasm-Vo, resistance to many different types of attacks, skilled with alien technology and has notable HtH and superhuman combat skill, under a blue sun his powers are boosted and he gains the ability to imbue others with his powers.
Weaknesses: Kryptonite (various varieties), red sunlight, magic(effected by magic as much as a human is), cannot see through lead
Destructive Capacity: Large Planet Level+ (can harm avatars of Darkseid and shatter planets)
Range: At least one planetary diameter.
Speed: Massively FTL (has tagged the Flashes and Zoom as well)
Durability: Solar System Level+ (survived multiple supernovas, tanked the collision of Apokolips and New Genesis and was only briefly knocked out)
Lifting Strength: Class Y (Able to smash and move the moon, has moved 1/3 of the earth before, pulled the Mageddon mechanism that was at least as large as the earth-moon system)
Striking Strength: At least Class XKJ+ (Can shatter planets)
Stamina: Essentially infinite as long as he's under yellow or blue sunlight.
Standard Equipment: In one issue, recieved a massive power-up widely known as the Cosmic Armor. This is not part of his skillset though, so the OP should specify.
Intelligence: Capable of processing information extremely quickly and storing a lot, expert in various alien technologies (he can invent and build new things with Kryptonian technology rather easily), martial arts skills, good deductive and leadership skills, massive battle experience with all kinds of powerful beings.
.Lifted the entire weight of the Earth for five days straight... Barely even broke a sweat.
.One time lifted up 200 quintillion tons.
.Has held a small Black Hole in his hand. A feat that would easily destroy a normal's person's hand.
.Has pushed, pulled, and dragged the entire Earth.
.Has defeated Gods before, like Darkseid.
.Fixed a hole in the the cosmos.
.Survived a blast with the force of several nuclear blasts.
.Survived several Supernovas.
.Destroyed an army of imperfect Doomsday clones with his Heat Vision.
.Heated up the entire Earth with his Heat Vision.
.Survived being zapped by geo-thermal energy.
.Split an entire sea with his Heat Vision.
.Survived being thrown to the Earth with great force, unharmed.
.Has created a dynasty of superheroes to follow in his footsteps
Heat Vision: Can accurately target things smaller than human beings from orbit, narrow or wide-beam, heat intensity can be greater than the core of the sun, can modulate it to deliver different frequencies and types to best affect his opponent after analyzing them with his sensory powers, can generate enough power to move entire planets
Freezing Breath: He freezes his opponents using his super breath to do it.
I thank my opponent for giving these statistics on Superman. I accept them, but want to note that he has not supplied sources. I will hence also take all facts I propose here for granted. If my opponent doubts one of these facts, I will supply proof.
Superman would not stomp Goku from Dragonball or Dragonball Z.
Both are champions of good, fighters against evil. Superman would never engage a fellow hero in battle. They would be friends.
And even though Goku loves fighting for training, Superman has always had a tendency to go easy on his opponents in sparring matches. As evidence, I offer his race against the Flash. Superman could have easily won by making Flash trip with his super-breath without anyone noticing. He didn't, as he loves fair game and would never hurt anybody without need.
Goku and his comrades often fight to total exhaustion and severe damage. Superman would stop the fight at first blood.
He would thus NOT stomp Goku, as there would be no reason.
And even if Goku or Superman were turned evil by some third party, Superman would never stomp Goku.
Goku, aside from his boundless strength (which he can increase to god-like levels by entering the Super-Saiyan mode and Kaio-ken) has a magical staff. Superman is highly susceptible to magical damage.
Goku has a supply of magical Senzu beans that allow him to heal.
If Goku is about to die, his alien body reacts by giving him a power-boost, making him so much stronger than before. So, if Superman WOULD beat Goku within an inch before death, Goku would come back at him stronger than ever. Superman's strength is limited by the amount of solar radiation he can absorb. Goku can fight anywhere, anytime, for extended periods of time. So, if he fights Superman at night or in the shadow of some planet, Superman runs out of energy quickly.
Goku can always gather more energy. His Genki-dama attack is a giant energy ball that borrows minute amounts of energy from every living being in range, including whole planets.
Goku has also mastered the art of instantaneous teleportation. If Superman were to turn evil and Goku found himself outmatched, he would not hesitate to take Superman to his death with him. He has done so before repeatedly. So, he would simply teleport himself and Superman into the heart of a black hole, sacrificing his own life.
If Goku became evil, he would turn into a huge were-ape-form, multiplying his energy even further. And as long as Superman remains good, he would be hesitant to kill Goku, because he will always know that inside the monster, there is still the good Goku who deserves to be saved. This will give the mad were-ape the upper hand, as he knows no restraints, only blind, relentless rage.
Goku has trained on multiple planes of existence. He has beaten every martial artist who ever dies in the afterlife. This would mean that Superman can only win if he is stronger than any warrior ever alive. But Superman has been beaten by Doomsday, and he has been evenly matched with Darkseid numerous times, in one case only winning ONLY because Batman intervened and forced Darkseid to surrender (in Superman/Batman comics on Apokolips, when Supes and Bats went there to return Supergirl to Earth). It is very unlikely that Superman is the strongest man ever born on planet Krypton. All dead Kryptonians would end up in the afterlife, where Goku must have kicked them all out of the tournament.
Summarizing: Superman would never stomp Goku. There is either no need, or Goku would teleport an evil Superman into a black hole or an evil Goku would relentlessly grow stronger and eventually wear Superman down.
superman can easily skip on past the light barrier like it ain't no thing, but just what is the man of steels "max" speed?
superman travelling to andromeda and back in a matter of hours...care to have a number put to that.
andromeda is 2.4e19 km away from us.
let's say it took superman 6 hours to get there
superman can go over 3.7 billion times faster than light
It would have taken Goku nearly 3000 years to just get to andromeda and another 3000 to get back. superman did it in a night, maybe less. We've seen superman properly react and fight at those break neck speed.
Batman once calculated Superman's reaction time in the Zeptoseconds (1e-21 seconds), this is befitting considering Batman helped train Superman.
Durability and strength/Damage Output
so,we've seen superman resist the forces of black hole, supply the force needed to keep a black hole from properly forming, stand up to a hyper nova 50 times more powerful than the kelper explosion, 15 exploding suns in his face(possibly), over powered guys who can punch holes in dimensional barriers, slapped planet busters into oblivion, reheated earth, ect.
Time for the Divine agent of overkill to quantify .
well, he's back and we can calculate superman's punching power and durability through him.
http://www.narutoforums.com... this link
so, superman was calculated to be moving the 6.8e36 kg Mageddon about 2952 km/s, we'll go by his joules output and us that to calculate his punching power.
lets move that over 1 second, or 2952000 meters. resulting in 8.74e55 joules
That's how hard superman could hit and be hit without going for an IMP or for a sundip.
how bout this?
superman had to keep that thing from destroying everything by supplying enough force to make up for the strong nuclear forces that gravity was overcoming.
The singularity has a radius of about an inch (2.54 cm)
first, it's mass.
the mass comes out 1.6e25 kg
now said user pointed out that superman would have to apply 1e36 times the force to the mass
so, we've got superman applying about 1.6e52 megatons of powah!!!!
note this is goku stats
Name: Son Goku, Kakkarot
Origin: Dragon Ball
Classification: Alien (Saiya-jin [Saiyan in the English Adaptations]) Martial Artist
Age: Over 40 by the end of the series
Powers and Abilities: Super strength , speed, urability, agility, endurance, skilled in martial arts, afterimage creation, incredible leg strength (was able to leap into the troposphere casually in his earlier days), flight, the ability to manipulate and use ki both defensively (can use his ki to enhance his natural durability and harden his skin to the extent he's able to block sword attacks from a fellow Super Saiya-jin with only his finger) and offensively (can shoot ki blasts capable of crossing thousands of kilometers and blowing up entire planets), can create flashes of light to blind his opponents, low level psychic powers: telepathy and telekinesis, energy sensing, a pure heart, can transform to increase his power even further (can either use his Kaioken technique to get up to a 20x boost linearly in all of his stats or use his Super Saiya-jin transformations up to 3 for an even greater boost in all stats), the ability to instantly transport himself anywhere with his Shunkan Ido technique, can also use this technique to cross dimensions, power that increases substantially after recovering from near fatal injuries, can hear people speaking whilst he's asleep, resistance towards electricity | Same as previous as well as the ability to absorb ki, can't be sensed by beings lesser than a "God"
Weaknesses: Can't survive in the vacuum of space, can only maintain Super Saiya-jin 3 form for a short time before running out of energy or stamina. Needs energy/life signatures to lock on to use Shunkan Ido effectively, Genki Dama requries a long "charging-up" period and only works on people with evil hearts/souls | The SSJ God Form has a time limit
Destructive Capacity: Island level+ | Planet level | Large planet level+ | At least large planet level+ | small star level+ | Solar system level (a bit weaker than Bills- fought him at 70% power with 80% of his own power)
Range: At least one red dwarf diameter
Speed: Hypersonic+ (mach 89, could outpace Piccolo's ki blasts over a short distance) | Massively hypersonic+ (mach 270 via kaio-ken multiplier) | Massively hypersonic+ (at least quadruple digits mach, proved capable of swatting away Freeza's machine gun like volley of death beams [his fastest attack] with one hand. Speed of Freeza's death ball) | Massively hypersonic+, Sub-relativistic+ reflexes/reaction time | Sub-Relativistic+ (mach 31,000, comparable in speed to SSJ Gotenks) | At least sub-relativistic+
Durability: Island level+ | Planet level | Large planet level+ | At least large planet level+ | Small star level+ | Solar system
Lifting Strength: At least Class M+
Striking Strength: Class PJ+ | Class ZJ+ (superior to Gohan) | Class XJ+ | Possibly Class XKJ (can trade blows with Perfect Cell) | Class XKJ+ minimum | Possibly Class XGJ+, likely higher
Stamina: Inhuman levels in both his base and Super Saiya-jin forms (can train for days with minimal rest and have long drawn out fights) significantly decreases upon reaching Super Saiya-jin 2. Upon reaching Super Saiya-jin 3, his stamina is low enough that Super Saiya-jin 3 is almost useless against any fighter strong enough to use it against, as it can only be maintained for a few minutes
Standard Equipment: Early on in the series the kintoun, a sentient cloud he could ride on, and the nyoi-bo, a magic pole that could extend and contract at his command. As an adult, uses weighted clothing
Intelligence: Mastery of various martial arts techniques and skills (can also copy techniques after seeing them once); years of experience fighting both powerful and diverse enemies whom have various abilities and powers. Is a combat/tactical genius for the most parts. Goku was the first to realize that Super Saiya-jin states were wasting an extreme amount of energy just by powering up to it, mastered the form despite the huge amount of stress (psychological and physical) the state puts on his body, which is more effective than training two years physically in the Room of Spirit and Time. Also devised different usages of the Kamehameha such as propelling it with his feet, homing in on targets, altering its path and range, using ki to augment his physical strength, and so on
- Super Saiya-jin (Saiyan) Forms: An advanced transformation assumed by extraordinarily powerful members of the Saiya-jin race which increases his Base Battle-Power by 50 times, and this is proportioned to his physical attributes giving him a great and even increase in strength, ki power, speed, stamina and durability. However, without mastery of this form, much of this energy is wasted transforming and maintaining the transformation. The Super Saiya-jin form also has three additional branch states (which sacrifice speed for raw power) and is succeeded by two further transformations, Super Saiya-jin 2 (twice as strong as a regular Super Saiya-jin) and 3 (four times as strong as a Super Saiya-jin 2). Goku can use all of these transformations.
- Kamehameha (Turtle Wave): Goku's signature energy attack. A powerful beam of ki that can destroy a planet if enough power is put into it. Alsovariants of the Kamehameha allow Goku to control it's path or perform it with his feet.
- Chou Kamehameha (Ultimate Turtle Wave): Technically the supreme and mastered version of the Kamehameha.
- Bukujutsu (Lighter than Air Dance): The ability to levitate and fly through the usage of Chi/Ki.
- Zanzoken: Afterimage technique based on speed, the technique is specifically used to overwhelm or trick an opponent into leaving themselves open to a feint attack; other versions include the Double Zanzoken and Triple Zanzoken.
- Kaioken: Goku forms a red ki aura around his body, enhancing his strength and speed, the highest level of this attack used is x20. Recent info perpetuates that everything is literally amped linerally i.e. Kaioken doubles strength, speed, power, ki and so on.
- Kiai: A Ki technique using the power of his Chi to physically repel physical or energy attacks through his aura or voice via shouting.
- Dragon Fist: An attack where Goku Jumps at his foe, and punches through them with tremendous ki.
- Genki Dama (Spirit Bomb): Goku conducts the spirit energy of all nearby living organisms, forming a ball of power and size depending of the amount of harnessed ki energy, this technique is essentially useless against pure-hearted beings but exceptionally effective against evil beings.
- Shunkan Ido (Instant Transmission): Also called Instantaneous Transmission the user places their index and middle finger on their forehead, sensing a location that they teleported To.
compared to super man this is a stomp
My opponent has not refuted most of my arguments from the previous rounds.
My opponent repeats himself, only adding numbers. Superman is fast.
But my opponent contradicts himself: Goku has the ability of "Shunkan Ido (Instant Transmission): Also called Instantaneous Transmission", which means it will take Goku exactly zero seconds to get to Andromeda. Instantaneous means that no time passes, making Goku's effective speed infinitely high, as Speed = distance/time, and dividing by zero borders infinity. Goku is thus, by account of my opponent, infinitely faster than Superman.
Superman's power has thus no significant effect. Goku can evade any attack, surprise Superman from behind, hit him with his magic staff and knock him out. The staff is definitely magical in nature, as it was created by "God", an alien with magical capabilities. We have seen Goku knock out numerous enemies with his staff, and by my opponent's reasoning, Superman is just as susceptible to the effects of magic as any human being. This means a single blow of the staff would knock Superman unconscious. The staff is also indestructible, so even without magic, Goku could use the expanding staff to push Superman anywhere he wanted. As a kid, he once took a bunch of criminals to the moon, within seconds, in this way. Goku could use his staff to push Superman into the remains of Krypton, or into the heart of a red sun, where Superman would lose his powers and perish.
Goku could also use his teleport to that end. My opponent concedes that Superman loses his powers in red sunlight. That goes for his invulnerability and flight, too. So, no matter how strong Superman is in his powered state (even if you argue he could escape a black hole), he would never escape the gravity of a red sun if he's either pushed or teleported into one.
Goku himself cannot be surprised. He was trained by Popo to perceive the ki aura of any living being, especially powerful ones, and by the "Android Saga" was able to feel Frieza coming over a distance of several light years.
Superman, for all his enhanced senses, cannot do that. He has no eyes in his back, and if the fight was to take place in outer space, his super hearing would be useless. The range of Superman's powers is limited. So Goku can sense him from afar and lead Superman on a wild goose chase across the galaxy with is teleport and wear Superman out by evading yellow stars.
So, all calculations about Superman's maximum stats are irrelevant. Goku would not allow him to reach or keep his full power level. It was always Vegeta who allowed his enemies to reach their final form in order to prove his superiority.
My opponent briefly mentioned God mode, but his longer list omits this formidable new set of powers for Goku:
"The power of this form is great enough to allow Goku to fight on par with the God of Destruction Beerus, who had effortlessly defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu, Super Saiyan Gotenks, and a fully powered Vegeta. As such, it is currently among the most powerful Super Saiyan transformations in all of Dragon Ball Z. This form also allows the user to sense godly ki, and they can absorb attacks by consuming ki. ... the form drains the user's energy reserves fairly quickly, thus creating a time limit, although Beerus speculates that this limitation could be overcome. Unlike the other Super Saiyan forms, Super Saiyan God is not a permanent transformation. In Goku's case, during the events of the film, he is seen losing the form, yet retaining the power, allowing him to continue to battle Beerus on equal grounds in his base and Super Saiyan forms."
With the addition of this, all of Superman's powers become useless against Goku. If Superman absorbs sunlight and converts it into his powers, he must use some sort of inner energy to store his powers. This power is "ki". So, in God mode, Goku can now absorb Superman's heat vision, too.
Let's also not forget that Goku can at any time collect the Dragonballs of two planets (Earth and Namek), granting him a total of four very powerful magical wishes. Superman knows nothing of these Dragonballs. Goku could easily wish for Superman to be turned into a frog. Superman would - by definition - be as susceptible as normal humans to this magic. He'd be helpless.
So, even if a fight were to take place, Superman would not "stomp" Goku.
superman pin darksied and beat him.
plus doomsday is far superior to darksied
which superman has killed in some occassions
Let all use are common sense ,since when can goku ever surpass superman speed or strength. collect dragon balls , you very funny do you not know how long that would take. since when will goku even have time to do that. here my sources indicate http://www.screwattack.com... super man stomps.
i contradict my self you very funny all i did was add details to what i stated. first off superman is no dummy what so ever he will easily use his experience to get goku down.
let me know if goku can face darksied omega beam and go toe to toe with doomsday.
you clearly did not read my stats regarding superman.
goku can not even breathe out of space. so what your point with all this rubbish your giving me.
look your obviously a dbz super fanboy you give me opinions rather than facts.
everyone with sense would know goku is out match.
this will not only be a stomp but a brutal death.
you said goku god form can absorb superman attacks?
what in the world are you talking about this is all opinions and antics from a fan boy. first off superman uses sun for his cells to absorb solar energy. so you telling me goku can absorb his attack because he is using energy is crap.
first of if that is the case how come goku didn't absorb bill attacks? goku is very overrated. plus his god form doesn't last forever superman takes this. superman also have better stamina unlike goku. first of magic is technically not superman weakness its just that it makes him vulnerable because he is not immune to it. it would effect him just like any other super hero that's not magical. little punk behind staff is not going to stop him look at how superman beat captain marvel.
all this rubbish your telling me is opinionated not fact based.
we all know superman is stronger way faster , stronger, smarter,and more durable.
its crazy that you say goku would win when super speed blitz and carry him outer space throw his stupid behind in a black hole. you said goku would teleport him to red sun. how, if superman can sense him and by far is way faster. first of if goku can sense him how come he get hit around by buu. goku has power up for slow amount of time superman would punch him before he could breathe. you think superman going to wait for him. super would rush and beat him up. goku charging his energy make him vulnerable. goku is no where near the strength of superman this is terrible. stomp by superman crazy.
Beating people is not a linear thing. Everybody has different weaknesses. So the argument "A beats B, B beats C, so A beats C" is fallacious. Allow me to show you this with an example:
Goku can beat a kilogram of Kryptonite. This is logical, as the Kryptonite cannot harm him.
The Kryptonite beats Superman. This is logical because it's poisonous to him.
Does this mean Goku will beat Superman? No.
Your argument about Darkseid and Doomsday is thus invalid. For instance, in the film "Superman/Batman: Apocalypse" we see Superman incinerate an ARMY of Doomsdays with ONE LOOK. Yet in the comicbook "The Death of Superman" ONE Doomsday beat Superman to the brink of death. So, if Doomsday is evenly strong as Superman, and Superman can defeat an army of Doomsdays, Doomsday can also defeat an army of Doomsdays, which means he is far more powerful than himself? Same would go for Superman.
So, let's leave the childish insults aside ("rubbish") and look at facts.
Some of your facts are wrong. In the animated series, Superman relies on a space suit for prolonged periods in space. http://www.angelfire.com...
As can Goku: http://2.bp.blogspot.com...
Goku can thus fight in space, as long as his suit doesn't get damaged. Goku would not have to ever engage Superman in direct battle.
While it is true that Goku cannot breathe in space, he can still use his teleport to travel great distances through space. He returned to Earth from his battle with Frieza in that way. So, he can still lead Superman on the chase I described before.
Collecting the Dragonballs costs Goku no time at all. In the Frieza saga, even Tien and Yamcha collected the Dragonballs with ease.
Goku has a Dragonball radar and can teleport. Superman does not know any of this. All he can do is look for Goku with his telescopic vision, x-ray vision and so on, while Goku teleports from Dragonball to Dragonball, taking him seconds at best. Goku could then retreat to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber ( http://dragonball.wikia.com... ) where he summons the Dragon and is undetectable by Superman, as it is a parallel dimension, through which Superman cannot see. Once the Dragon is summoned, Goku could then wish for Superman to be turned into anything. A nice block of Kryptonite maybe?
Goku is no less experienced than Superman. He has fought every warrior who ever died in the Afterlife, and is repeatedly called "the greatest fighter in the Universe".
The question whether Goku can defeat Darkseid is a totally different one, and not part of this debate.
I am not a DBZ super fanboy. I grew up with Superman, and while I do not own a single DBZ toy, I own an extensive Superman collection. Still what you say makes no sense.
You, too, give opinions. All your arguments are taken from an unofficial blog.
"this will not only be a stomp but a brutal death."
Now, finally, I've got you.
You are thus narrowing your resolution down to Superman actually brutally KILLING Goku, a fellow hero.
I want proof for this outrage. In all of the comicbooks and movies, when has Superman ever killed a good guy? If somebody was possessed, he always found a way to bring them back. Seeing as Goku does not have a single spark of Evil inside of him (evident by him being able to ride his magical cloud and by an early Dragonball episode where he was hit by a devil with a ray that would have exploded him if there had been even the littlest bit of evil and survived unharmed), Superman would NEVER kill Goku.
He would work things out with him and save him. Like heroes do.
The only possible scenario would be for Superman to become evil. In which case Batman would equip Goku with Kryptonite to stop Superman. Batman has repeatedly intervened to stop Superman in the comics, most famously in "The Dark Knight Returns" by Frank Miller. He holds Kryptonite to that end, and would cooperate with Goku. But, even without that, Goku will just do as I said: teleport Superman into the heart of a red sun, where Superman will sadly die. Goku has no qualms about killing his enemies if they will repeatedly not listen to reason.
Your ad hominem attacks at me serve you no good. I am not a fanboy, and even if I were, this wouldn't make a difference for my arguments.
Superman converts solar energy into chemical energy, storing it inside his cells ( http://en.wikiversity.org... ). We know it cannot be electrical energy, because Superman USED to store his energy in electrical form, but returned to his previous form again ( http://www.supermansupersite.com... - notice the electric bolts!). Chemical energy is internal energy. Ki is the internal energy of a living being ( http://www.merriam-webster.com... ). Goku can absorb Ki attacks, i.e. all attack that are not brute force, like heat vision, because the heat vision is powered by the inner energy. It is not mechanical energy. Heat vision is thermodynamics. Now, famously Ki can be used to heat up body parts (see video above ). If heat vision exists, it is clearly a Ki attack.
This is science.
Prove me wrong.
Who or what are "bill attacks"?
Goku's god form does not need to last forever. As I stated above, Goku retains the power of the God form after the actual red halo disappears: "In Goku's case, during the events of the film, he is seen losing the form, yet retaining the power, allowing him to continue to battle Beerus on equal grounds in his base and Super Saiyan forms."
Goku DOES absorb the energy attack of the God of Destruction: "Goku is able to stop Beerus' energy sphere, barely holding it back, and then he briefly transforms to Super Saiyan God once again and absorbs the massive energy sphere" ( http://dragonball.wikia.com... ). Most certainly, this is more energy than Superman can unleash, since he is still just a mortal being.
Goku's stamina has never been examined, but as I said, he has a supply of senzu beans to heal him anytime, refreshing him completely. He can last longer than Superman with those.
"first of magic is technically not superman weakness"
CONTRADICTION TO YOUR DEFINITION FROM ROUND 1: "Weaknesses: Kryptonite (various varieties), red sunlight, magic(effected by magic as much as a human is), cannot see through lead"
You defined this as a weakness. Goku has defeated humans effortlessly with his magic staff. Superman is JUST AS VULNERABLE, which means he will be defeated easily BY THAT SAME STAFF.
In the famous comic "Kingdom Come" by Mark Waid and Alex Ross, Captain Marvel defeats Superman easily with his magical lightning bolt. Your argument is disproved:
"how, if superman can sense him and by far is way faster."
How does Superman sense somebody teleporting behind him in outer space? Which sense would he use? Goku has the power to detect people through their Ki, from light years away. But not Superman, according to your own definitions.
Superman can be taken by surprise, by Captain Marvel, for instance:
This is Captain Marvel's entrance, after which he promptly defeats Superman. It is thus not impossible to surprise Superman. In outer space, Superman has no hearing, as sound does not traverse a vacuum. He cannot use his sight if Goku appears behind him. So, which power does Superman use to sense Goku?
Goku allowed Buu to hit him because Buu had absorbed lots of innocent beings that Goku wanted to save before destroying Buu:"Old Kai then realizes that Vegito deliberately got himself absorbed so he could find and rescue Gohan, Gotenks, and Piccolo." ( http://dragonball.wikia.com... ). It was a clever plan showing just how far Goku is capable of planning ahead.
Strength is not always a decisive advantage. Goku has outwitted the most formidable of his foes. The famous 300 Spartans defeated an army of Persians. Goku's readiness to sacrifice himself in order to stop evil beings would definitely give him the upper hand in a battle against an evil Superman.
I really see no need to take this another two rounds. You are only repeating yourself. I have refuted any argument you have presented with a possible, even probable solution for Goku.
And you continue to disregard Superman's character. Superman does not fight good guys to the death. Again, show me a single example where he did.
I gave you examples how Captain Marvel defeated Superman, now give me an example of Superman using deadly force against a fellow hero, if you please. Because that is all you have.
Goku is hesitant to kill good guys, sacrificing rather himself than others.
Again, if both are good, no death battle happens.
If Superman is evil, Goku will kill them both in the heart of a red sun. Knowing that his friends could revive him with the Namek Dragonballs, we can consider this a "win". This happened with Raditz.
If Goku is evil, Superman will not kill him, but save him.
"In any of the main DC Comics universes, Superman has never killed a sentient being. However, in the 1988 comic Superman #22, with art by John Byrne, Superman does kill a General Zod from a "pocket universe" using Gold Kryptonite. The experience does leave him shattered, and he begins to question whether he himself is a dangerous being — moral uncertainty that Henry Cavill's self-righteous Zod-killing Superman in Man of Steel does not seem to possess. Moreover, it hasn't ever been established that a Kryptonian fighting a Kryptonian while on Earth could kill the other just by breaking his neck. You would need Kryptonite to do that or a molecular chamber like in Superman II — where it isn't clear if Zod and his companions actually are killed when they're rendered human." ( http://www.hollywood.com... )
Will you stop?
insult actually more of truth in fact it is all rubbish.
the heck you me , its wrong first of that is an animated version not comic book version. superman has proven several times he can go fly in space and fight in it. without using any Armour.
superman is an intellect you really think superman wont catch him before he summoned a dragon .
turn superman into kryptonite wow. you very bias and say feats that does not even match superman.
yes goku can fight but you can never compare the warrior in afterlife to superman villains at all.
actually darkseid is really relevant because if superman has beaten him before it can tell that superman can beat goku.
the blog is official and based on facts maybe if you took time to read it you wouldn't be confuse.
stomp can mean any sort of defeat and it can be interchangeable so just try to stop being smarty pants.
it was never stated as superman killing a hero is himself. This is a battle debate so any thing goes.
superman will kill goku if he needed to due to this being a battle debate.
ad hominem attack does matter because it just doesn't add up that goku would win.
yes you are a fan boy you saying illogical crap meaning you are. don't use superman junk to coverup if you really like superman you would know by fact goku would loose. plus it does matter that you are a fan boy because it will make you become bias in debate.
are you drinking goku coo laid it has been shown that superman has far superior stamina than goku. haven't you seen goku huff and puff? when is the last time you seen superman complain he is tired fighting someone.
you are really irritating me superman, is not immune to magic and it wont harm him like kryptonite it just one of things that can hurt him. it will be more of a heavy punch. when i mean just as vulnerable as human i mean it can harm him and humans are not immune to magic. if it is a magic spell or enchantment that's different go can not do that.if it is confusing i can replace it as non magical superhero. superman has in fact beaten captain marvel by letting the shazam lightning hit him to turn him into a kid. billy was never smart enough to go well with superman. http://www.comicvine.com... also this cartoon justice league video prove so. https://www.youtube.com... superman beats Thor in the jla vs avengers cross over and he is magic. just like when hulk beat Thor and he was magic while hulk is not.
in this case strength is decisive because the strength is way to much.
superman has killed more than one person in the comic book before including doomsday. http://www.comicvine.com....
just stop with your fan boy antics OK.
First of all, read the comments, please.
I am NOT accepting your round 1 entry anymore, as you completely plagiarized it! That is illegal and bad conduct. It also was the reason I accepted the debate, as I believed you were actually good enough at English to have a decent conversation with you. Your last rounds, however, show you are not capable of even a civil discussion.
Stop with your personal insults immediately. This is very bad conduct.
OBVIOUSLY, this debate is NOT limited to the comic part.
YOU were the one who talked about Goku's God mode, which ONLY exists in animation. So, we're talking about the expanded universes. I don't care whether you NOW claim to be talking about the comics alone. You didn't state so before.
PLUS, you used a cartoon video as evidence yourself, just this round: " also this cartoon justice league video prove so." So, quit with the double standards.
Okay, let's try this again:
Superman has beaten Captain Marvel, as you said yourself.
I have shown you a comic where Marvel beats Superman with EASE.
So, beating people in Superman comics is not a linear thing. They have both beaten each other. In that case, it becomes circular.
"Superman/Batman: Apocalypse" is actually a very true adaptation of the Superman/Batman comics:
"In "The Supergirl From Krypton" (issues #8-13, illustrated by Michael Turner), the Kryptonite asteroid is revealed to hold a pod that contains Superman's cousin Kara Zor-El. Batman says her arrival is too coincidental. Wonder Woman abducts Kara to Themyscira to train her for combat. Darkseid kidnaps Kara, intending her to be the new leader of the Female Furies. She is rescued from Darkseid and taken back to Earth." from http://en.wikipedia.org...
Superman in this case only beat Darkseid on Apokolips because Batman threatened to blow up the Planet. It's in the comicbook.
The term "clone" means
a : the aggregate of genetically identical cells or organisms asexually produced by a single progenitor cell or organism
b : an individual grown from a single somatic cell or cell nucleus and genetically identical to it
(from Merriam-Webster's dictionary)
The clones only lacked Doomsday's soul. But when Superman was beaten to near death by Doomsday, the monster was still mindless, too, ACCORDING TO THE WEBSITE YOU LINKED TO:
"I don't really think Doomsday counts, considering at the time, he was just a mindless beast."
So, you are saying Superman can be almost killed by ONE mindless Doomsday, but can with one look destroy an army of the exact same thing? No.
I never doubted that Superman can survive in space in the comics. That is why I stated that the ANIMATED Superman uses a space suit, and thus Goku must be allowed one, too.
Superman will not catch Goku before Goku summons the Dragon, because Goku in my example will summon the Dragon in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, where Superman cannot find Goku, as the Chamber is not in this universe. No power of Superman says he can see through universes. He will not find Goku. He will not find him collecting the Dragonballs either, because Goku teleports from ball to ball, and no power of Superman can find Goku this way. The Dragonballs are scattered around the planet every time. Only Goku with his radar knows where they are. Superman does not have one, he will be totally surprised. Superman, for all his intellect, will never find Goku in time to stop him.
The Dragon can turn indestructible Dragonballs into stone. Surely, it can turn the indestructible Superman into Kryptonite. It's in the manga and the anime. Every time the Dragonballs have been used, the Dragon turns them into stone for a year.
Of course all the warriors in the universe must be comparable to Superman villains. If Superman and Goku shall meat for battle, they must coexist. Thus, also Superman's villains must exist. Some of Superman's villains died, for instance Mongul ( http://en.wikipedia.org... ). Mongul was killed by Neron, but he was "physically more powerful than Superman and as almost totally invulnerable to harm." He was a warrior. He died. So he came to the Afterlife. Where Goku beat EVERY warrior EVER. So, he must have beaten Mongul, too. By your own reasoning, he would then be stronger than Superman.
Because you keep coming up with that linear chain "A beats B, B would beat C, so A would beat C", although I have already disproved it. But BY THAT argument, Goku wins against Superman, because he MUST have beaten Mongul. Goku is - again - repeatedly called "the greatest Warrior in the Universe".
We have no proof Darkseid would beat Goku. That is an entirely different debate, and it has not happened in the comics. So, this gets us nowhere. Darkseid didn't go to the Afterlife, so he and Darkseid didn't fight. Mongul is a relevant example, and Superman never physically defeated him. Goku MUST have. So, there is reasonable doubt that Superman would actually beat Goku.
"the blog is official" Oh, no, it isn't. An OFFICIAL blog would be run by DC editors. I am not confused.
Nowhere in the rules it is stated that "anything goes" on the first round. You wanted to debate the existing characters, and Superman's character does not allow him to kill FELLOW HEROES.
So, Superman will NOT kill Goku.
Ad hominem attacks matter, as they are forbidden on this site, especially if you combine them with personal insults, as you excessively do.
"Bias" in a debate where we have clear positions? Clearly, you do not understand how debates work. It is the JURY that must be unbiased. You are biased, saying Superman will kill Goku. I am biased in saying this will not happen. The jury decides. They must be unbiased.
Goku "huffs and puffs", because in contrary to Superman his metabolism needs oxygen. We have already settled that. Goku is a breather, Superman works from solar energy. He needs no oxygen, so he doesn't breathe. However, we have seen Superman beaten and exhausted already. In the fight against Captain Marvel I already showed you. Which is just one example.
Atlas being another: "Superman is getting more tired and beaten up as the fight continues." from http://en.wikipedia.org...
Again, it doesn't matter. Goku eats one Senzu bean and is up to full stamina again.
Superman is highly vulnerable to magic. It's in the comics. This one, I owned as a kid: http://www.comicvine.com...
"At his Fortress Of Solitude, Superman begins an investigation into the reason for his high vulnerability to magic. Scanning a copy of the necronomicon, Superman determines that magic is, in fact, a physical energy form. One Superman believes a defense against can be found. Meanwhile, Zatanna and Zatarra are also on a quest for knowledge. Consulting with Madame Van Jung, Zatanna seeks the origin of magic use on Earth. Zatanna believes that all magic stems from one source, possibly another dimension. The ability for humans to wield magic comes from an offshoot of humanity, known as "Homo Magus". Wielding magic came naturally to Homo Magus. Interbreeding with Homo Sapiens allowed some humans to develop the ability to access magic, through various rituals. Zatana further postulates that the reason Superman has no defense against magic, nor is able to wield it, is because he is an alien, and therefore has no Homo Magus genes in his DNA."
So, in FACT, Superman is FAR MORE VULNERABLE to magic than humans. Goku's staff would knock him unconscious in one swoop.
The Captain Marvel controversy has been addressed above. Captain Marvel has beaten Superman, Superman has beaten Marvel. Which contradicts your idea of linear overpowering. Do you want to deny the evidence above? Did not Captain Marvel completely surprise and defeat Superman in "Kingdom Come"? Done.
What do Thor and Hulk battling each other have to do with this? Even id Superman beat Thor once, he wouldn't have to, a second time. Same as with Captain Marvel.
Which means that Goku COULD win against Superman, and you have not met your burden of proof.
Superman killing: Thanks for the source, it perfectly underlines my point.
Step by step.
I already established the death of the pocket universe Zod, Faora and Jax-Ur. Those were VILLAINS. Your task was to prove that Superman killed a FELLOW HERO. You failed.
Doomsday did not die in the Battle with Superman, as the Cyborg threw Doomsday into space three issues later, while Doomsday was laughing: "One of these four, a half-man/half-machine who greatly resembled Superman with cybernetic implants where he had sustained the greatest amount of damage from Doomsday's blows, took custody of Doomsday's apparently lifeless body. After strapping the creature to an asteroid with an electronic device attached, the cyborg flung Doomsday into deep space, on a trajectory supposedly certain to never intersect any other planet. The issue ended with a frame of a reawakened and laughing Doomsday, still chained to the asteroid but otherwise alive." from http://en.wikipedia.org...
Superman did kill an army of mindless clones of Doomsday and was devastated by it. But those aren't even on your list, so: failed.
Other than that, your link shows that Superman refused to kill a possessed friend of his, just as I said:
"I can't do this" - "I WON'T KILL"
There you are. That's YOUR source. Superman WON'T KILL innocents.
Now as for the Injustice - storyline, a parallel universe where Superman becomes a villain. Yes, there he does kill heroes, but not FELLOW HEROES, as he has gone bad.
As I said, if Superman turns evil, he might want to kill Goku. Then Goku would teleport him into a red sun and end this. Goku has killed villains repeatedly. So in this case, it's not out of character, but Goku would win.
I have covered every single angle of this. This will be your final round, make it count.
I accept your apology. I hope you will find it in you in future debates to get more of a grip on yourself. It would make communicating with you so much easier.
I take your comment as a basic concession: "you got me".
But I will take the time to explain my argumentation and refute your final rebuttals.
1. I say Goku MUST have beaten Mongul. Goku has fought every dead warrior in the Afterlife. Mongul is a warrior. Mongul is dead. He must be in the Afterlife. Goku MUST have beaten him.
Now, you say the two are different universes. That is true, but if Goku can battle Superman, there MUST be a connection between the worlds. If YOU want Goku to battle Superman, and YOU come up with Darkseid and Doomsday defeating Goku as arguments, then I can EXTEND those arguments. Basically, you created a shared universe.
Even if not, even if Superman and Goku come from different dimensions and ONLY meet for this battle: the Afterlife in Dragonball Z is considered a parallel dimension. So, when people die, their soul goes to a parallel dimension. I say that there is only ONE Afterlife. Why should there be more than one? So, if Mongul lived in Superman's dimension and died, and Superman can cross into Goku's dimension or the other way 'round, then Mongul's soul has gone to that Afterlife. We know this, because Mongul is a conqueror. If his soul could conquer a whole parallel universe and was able to reach it after his death, he would travel there and try.
There Goku MUST have defeated him, because he has fought every dead warrior.
I admit it's a bit of a far fetch, but that is how I react to aggression. Sorry for the confusion.
2. I don't doubt Superman CAN - on occasion - outwit magical opponents. But on the site you linked to, it is clearly stated that Captain Marvel has repeatedly defeated Superman, too. As I said, this is a circular thing.
I will try to give you an example you might understand better, although it's not about comics: Rocky III. In the beginning. Clubber Lang defeats Rocky. Rocky trains, has his comeback and beats Lang. So, who is the better boxer? I can't tell. T point is: people change. Have you never had a bad day? Or stopped exercising because of a flu? Does Superman not ever grow tired of all his battles? Yes, he does, I provided a source for that. And after a battle like that with Atlas, will he not be easier to defeat? So, Marvel beating Superman on occasion shows Superman can be beaten by magic. Superman beating Marvel on occasion means Marvel is not as clever as Superman. Who wins the upper hand varies.
Do I say Superman will NEVER beat Goku? No, but I don't have to. You say Superman will DEFINITELY defeat and/or kill Goku. All I need to win this debate is prove a single case how Goku CAN win. Had you argued: "Superman will most likely defeat Goku in battle" you would have been right, and I would have agreed with you.
But saying Superman would ALWAYS win is wrong.
Okay, so here's how Goku defeats Superman:
1. "Good Superman": This is not to the death, as both are heroes and this is a sparring match
Goku teleports to Bulma, getting a space suit. Then teleporting away with it.
Superman tries to find Goku by listening to his heartbeat. But When he arrives at Bulma's place, Goku has already transported away.
Superman flies into outer space, to use his x-ray vision and telescopic vision to find Goku somewhere on Earth.
Goku uses his aura detection to locate Superman in space. Goku teleports right behind him. There is no sound in space, and Superman cannot detect auras like Goku. Goku will have ONE blow to finish Superman off. He takes his magic staff, extends it to a great length. This gives the blow more momentum and power. The staff is magical. Goku transforms into God mode for a short moment, like he did against Beerus. He raises his power with a maximal Kaio-ken. Goku hits Superman over the head with all this power and a magical staff. One hit. Superman is highly vulnerable to magic, and he is knocked out. He lands on Earth, wakes up rubbing his head. Goku teleports beside him and offers him a Senzu bean. Both shake hands as Superman admits his defeat.
2. "Evil Superman" 1: Knowing that an evil Superman will destroy Earth, Goku has to act fast.
He teleports to Bulma, picking up a Dragonball radar and telling Bulma to run.
He teleports to the first Dragonball.
Superman arrives at Bulma's, because he heard Goku's heartbeat. He finds the place empty and destroys it, realizing that Goku has left a spacesuit behind, which could give him an advantage. Remember Superman's intellect.
Goku has collected the first Dragonball, his heart beats a few times, he teleports to the next Dragonball.
Superman hears the heartbeat, he gives chase, but Goku is gone already. This continues until Goku has all the Dragonballs. Goku now teleports to the Hyperbolic Time chamber, where he summons the Dragon and wishes for Superman to be turned into something harmless. I don't believe Goku would know about Kryptonite, probably he would have Superman changed into a small living being, a squirrel, for example.
Superman is powerless, because he's highly vulnerable to the Dragon's magic. Goku finds the squirrel with his aura detection and promises to change Superman back in a year if he behaves. He then takes the squirrel with him on his adventures to show the evil Superman the ways of the hero again.
3. "Evil Superman" 2: Knowing that an evil Superman will destroy Earth, Goku has to act fast.
He teleports to Bulma, who says the Dragonball radar is broken. Goku grabs the spacesuit instead, telling her to say goodbye to his family for him and RUN. He teleports away to the Hyperbolic time chamber, where he thinks a few moments.
Superman arrives and destroys the empty lab just because of his evil ways.
He cannot find Goku, so he flies into space to search for him with his supervisions.
Goku detects Superman outside of Earth's orbit due to his aura. He talks with Mr. Popo, who has a lot of knowledge and sends him on a mystical quest to find out about Superman's weakness. Since time on these quests does not really pass, Goku will learn about Superman's history, and realize that Superman is powerless around red suns. He sends a farewell to all his friends and teleports right behind Superman, where Superman cannot sense him coming. Goku concentrates on his next destination, he lays a finger on Superman and teleports both of them into the heart of a red sun, where they both die.
Goku and Superman arrive in the Afterlife, where there is no yellow sun. Goku powers up to God form and teleports around Superman. Superman will instinctively use his heat vision to kill the fast-moving target. This is a Ki attack. Goku absorbs it. Superman wastes all of his energy. Now, a fully powered Goku takes his magical staff and pushes the weakened evil Superman into one of the magical tar pits of the Underworld, from which there is no escape (that happened to the Ginyu force).
Goku's friends travel to new Namek, collect the Dragonballs from there and revive Goku once more.
4. "Evil Goku"
An evil Goku will lead Superman on a wild goose chase across the universe to weaken him first, then kill him mercilessly.
First, he teleports to Bulma, killing her and taking the spacesuit.
He then teleports from planet to planet, robbing each of their energy to build a giant Genki-dama, while each time teleporting away just before Superman reaches him. Because for all his speed, Superman will have to find Goku first. He has no aura detection and must rely on his supervisions. Since Goku does not travel but teleport, there is no trace to follow. Superman will always be behind for a few - let's be fair - MINUTES. This gives Goku time to gather a Genki-dama. Eventually, he will jump into a system with a red sun, as those aren't that rare. Superman flies faster than the speed of light. He can thus not know what colour the sun has he is flying to, because the sun's light moves at light speed only.. When the light of the sun reaches him, it is too late. He loses his powers and gets the Genki-dama, because Goku believes his enemy to be hesitating. But evil Goku has forgotten that the Genki-dama only affects evil beings. Superman shrugs it off.
Goku thus believes that his enemy is very strong and is mocking him by just hanging around there in outer space, while in reality Superman is almost powerless. Goku transforms into the evil Golden Were-Ape, one of his most powerful rage forms, and pummels Superman into the sun, where Superman dies. In his rage, Goku forgets that this destroys his spacesuit, and the Were-Ape suffocates. Goku changes back, dying and grinning an evil smirk. He has just defeated the greatest hero ever.
Both arrive in the Afterlife, where Superman is powerless, because there is no yellow sun. Goku gets ready to beat the sh*t out of Superman for eternity, but he is transformed into a puffy cloud by the Lord of the Underworld, for cleansing and rebirth. That happened to evil Boo, and he was reborn as the boy Oob. Thus, the match ends with a win for Goku, as Superman never had a chance to fight back.
In every scenario, there is a risk of failure, but still: I have successfully shown that in every scenario, Goku can possibly defeat Superman.
Wonder Woman's mistake was to try and take out Superman by force in our solar system. Her arrogance led to her defeat. So close to a yellow sun, Superman can only be beaten by the likes of Mongul. But Goku is not arrogant. He is the most humble of all fighters. So, he will plan ahead, as he has always done, and use every trick in his box.
Could this go the other way? Yes, but there is a measurable chance of Superman losing, and that belongs on record.
However, luckily both are good guys and would be great friends, so we'll never see the day.
I thank my opponent for his great conduct in apologizing to me and would like the audience to take that into account.
This was - in the end - quite some fun after all.
Thanks all, take care.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Defro 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro plagiarized and committed an ad hominen fallacy. Pro had terrible spelling and grammar and conceded.
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