Debate Rounds (3)
Before we can assess which superhero is a better Avenger, we must first understand what an Avenger is. An Avenger, as defined by Tony Stark in The Avengers (2012) is a member of a group of "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", or a group of super heroes that are part of the Avengers Initiative. More importantly, what makes a super hero an Avenger is the idea that he or she can work with other super heroes for a greater cause. This is highlighted in the Avengers' motto: "Avengers Assemble".
With that in mind, I firmly resolve that Iron Man is a superior Avenger as compared to Thor. We already know that in terms of physical prowess, Iron Man and Thor are matched almost perfectly, as illustrated in the iconic stalemated forest battle scene between the two. Therefore, what determines superiority of one Avenger over another is his ability to work in a team of Earth's super heroes.
In this category, Tony Stark is clearly far superior for the following reasons:
1. When working as a team in battle, Iron Man consistently shows a stronger ability of being able to fight alongside other members. Iron Man uses other teammates' powers in conjunction with his own in order to mount superior defenses. For example, Iron Man worked well with Captain America in dislodging debris from the Helicarrier in order to get it afloat again. Iron Man also uses Cap's shield to their mutual advantage when disposing of Chitauri in the streets. Conversely, Thor tends to fight on his own terms.
2. Tony Stark is good at recognizing his team members' potential. This is one of the main themes of the Avengers film, and is illustrated best with two very prominent examples. First, Tony was the only Avenger to understand and believe that Bruce Banner could control The Hulk if he changed on his own accord. While the remainder of the Avengers, including Thor, dismissed Dr. Banner as a threat, Tony considered how Dr. Banner could be used as a positive and important member of the team. Secondly, while Tony had initial disagreements with Captain America, he ultimately let Cap take over leadership of the defense against the Chitauri because he understood that that was where Cap's strength lied. Conversely, Thor made no such attempts to play to his team member's strengths.
3. Lastly, Tony is more willing to sacrifice for the greater good. Among Thor's first concerns when he returned to Earth was the safety of his muse, Jane Foster. Tony Stark, however, while still considering her well-being important, prioritized the safety of the world in general. When the nuclear missile was headed towards Manhattan, Iron Man unhesitantly steered it towards the portal, knowing full well that he may not survive the encounter. Thor made no such self sacrifice as an Avenger.
For these reasons, I believe that Iron Man is superior of an Avenger when compared to Thor.
1) I would like to clarify that in the movie when Iron man and Thor battle Thor easily crumples iron mans suit with his fingers and is able to do a good amount of damage to iron man in a short amount of time. During this fight not only does Thor never show any signs of physical exhaustion, he never even gets injured by iron man
2) when working as a team Thor is able to work with the hulk for an extended duration of time and was the only avenger able to throughout the movie, he is also the one to stop hulk from killing black widow and destroying the helicarrier from the inside, however through ought the movie iron man shows to constantly anger the entire team and drive them apart and stir up contention.
3) when Thor first shows up he is the only one to not judge his team and is the only one to never really disagree with anyone on petty subjects, iron man however never really refers to captain America unless he is mocking him and constantly criticizes everyone.
4) Thors very first priority he had when coming to earth was its safety, this is clearly demonstrated when instead of first going to see Jane foster he goes to try and track down the cube and continues to help even when he could just as easily go and visit Jane, however iron man only cares about pepper pots and tries to completely ignore the people trying to get his help when they come to him and he seems to only help because pepper wants him to and when he does help he tends to mock everything as he goes. On Iron mans missile help he was the only one with radio communication and he was right next to the missile (away from all possible danger might I add) so one could not judge whether or not other members of the avengers would have done similar actions or not.
1) Thor is more willing to sacrifice because not only he risking his life to save earth from the invasion, but he does so on a planet that is not even his own. He could easily say why not just stay safe on Asgard, this shows his commitment to help everyone regardless of their planet or if he knows them.
2) Thor is a greater assistance to the team. He is a greater assistance in the battle as he is able to combat loki by himself (unlike iron man) and is able to kill around 5 of the big floating whale things (whatever they are called) with ease while iron man is barely able to kill 1 and he nearly ends up getting destroyed because of the effort.
thanks opponent for accepting and apologies if this is the wrong format.
First, during Iron Man and Thor's battle, it is clear that there is no winner. When Thor uses his greatest weapon, the lightning, it only serves to superpower Iron Man's suit. When Iron Man uses his greatest weapon (the chest blast), Thor is only knocked over. Neither of the two superheroes are physically superior to one another. Considering that Iron Man is going up against a demi-god in a suit he made himself, that is quite impressive.
While Thor did work with the Hulk in the later times of the film, this was only after Tony Stark had helped Bruce gain control over the Hulk. Tony fought alongside the Hulk as well. Before this, Thor fought the Hulk instead of trying to help. Pro's assertion that Iron Man constantly angers the team is inaccurate. Iron Man's actions served to bring the team closer together in a more effective dynamic by taking advantage of each team member's strengths.
Similarly, Iron Man does not constantly criticize everyone. Yes, he verbally spars with Captain America at first, but when it comes to a time when military-minded leadership is needed (against the Chitauri), Iron Man hands the leadership over to Captain America. This shows that he is capable of putting aside his ego when the need to do so is there. Conversely, Thor is adamant about bringing Loki to justice his own way, and refuses to acknowledge any other ideas.
Every hero's priority was Earth's safety. Just because Thor is from another planet doesn't make his concern for Earth's safety and more or less noble. Pro's assertions that Iron Man's first priority was Pepper Potts is absolutely incorrect. Iron Man was always available to help without hesitation. He provided his resources and expertise with no expectation of reward. And when he was about to sacrifice himself, he didn't let the fact that Pepper wasn't responding act as a deterrent in any way.
Pro's assertion that Thor is a greater assistance to the team is also incorrect. While his body count is higher, he provided no strategical advantage to the team, while Iron Man's analysis of what was happening helped the team coordinate their defenses where they were needed most. Also, Iron Man interacts with Loki as well, although this fact i irrelevant as to which hero is a better Avenger.
Thanks, pro! Looking forward to your response.
first I shall start off with some rebuttals
1) in the fight between Thor and iron man when it shows you the view from inside iron mans helmet you see that more that half of his suit is in critical condition very early in the fight. and while even while it is true that Thor's lightening did not do as much damage as his other attacks you can still see red hot cracks appear in iron mans chest armor. and even at 400 percent power iron man isn't able to so much as give Thor a scratch with his most powerful attack. Thor also shows the ability to easily destroy the iron man suit with his bare hands both when he grabs iron mans hands and crushes the forearms and near the end when iron man is down and Thor rips off his face mask like it is nothing. Also they have the zidine zadan head but thing and that was pretty cool/funny.
2) Thor completely held himself back in the fight and was only fighting hulk to subdue him so that he did not destroy the helicarrier and kill black widow (that would have really really really stunk if she died) and the only help that Iron man offered was him saying I can control having to deal with a super suit (just imagine Tony yelling at pepper for his suit like frozo in the incredibles) so you should be able to deal with his anger management issues.
3) Iron man is always making fun of everyone (and given it is pretty funny at times) and he never had any leadership to begin with so how could he hand any over to Captain America when he had none to begin with, he simply asks him what to do.
4) all of the other avengers priority but you in the beginning said that Thor's first priority was Jane so I had to refute it. Also all of the other avengers lived on earth and would have had to defend earth even if they didn't want to (unless they wished to be ruled by Loki) because that is their home and they cant really just pack up and leave, however Thor is endangering his own life to travel to a planet that he doesn't need to live on (and don't say it is just because Jane lives their because Thor could always just take her to asgard himself) and defend strangers from a danger that would never bother him on his own planet.
5) Thor provides a greater assistance to the team because of his higher body count and while given he does not provide any tactical insight to the team neither does iron man, he just stays safely out of the most intense fighting, hawkeye provides all of the tactical insight to the team.
in summary Thor is the greater avenger because
1) he is more powerful
2) he is able to work with all members of the team
3) he is helping when he doesn't really have anything to gain
4) provides a greater assistance in all of the fighting that occurs.
and 5) he provides some amazing connections and could take people to different planets if they needed. ( I never really touched on this before and so if that is not allowed in debate then simply choose to ignore this point)
thanks for the fun debate
Allow me to rebut your rebuttal, if I may.
While Thor had the initial advantage against Iron Man, I think it was pretty clear that neither of them would emerge victorious. As far as I can tell, the whole point of that scene was to illustrate that. Overall, they are definitely evenly matched.
Tony's advice was NOT limited to telling Bruce that he could deal with it. Tony actively pushed Bruce's boundaries in order to help Dr. Banner overcome his problem with the Hulk. He did it very intelligently, and as we could see, it worked! In the end, Dr. Banner gained control over the Hulk. It wasn't as much "anger management" issues that Tony was helping Bruce deal with, it was trying to help Bruce understand that the Hulk was part of who he was and he could learn to accept it. It was a major theme in the movie.
Iron Man has an ego, and does like to make quips at the others. However, saying that he did not have leadership is absolutely incorrect! In the movie, the team is clearly following Iron Man's instructions until he passes leadership off to Captain America. The fact that he relinquished leadership to someone he believed was more qualified proves that he was good at working in a team.
There is a scene, shortly after Thor joins the Avengers, that shows Thor asking Nick Fury about Jane Foster. This illustrated that he considered her paramount. Noble as that is, it does not make him a better Avenger. The assertion that Thor is fighting when he doesn't need to is incorrect. Thor is a prince of Asgard, and is as such charged with the duty of protecting all realms, including Midgard (Earth). He is as compelled to save Earth as every other Avenger.
Body count, as I illustrated previously, is not what makes a superhero a good Avenger. It may make him superior as a superhero (which is another debate), but it is not in any way indicative to how good he is as an Avenger. Remember, an Avenger is someone who can work with other superheroes to defend Earth. If he is unable to do that, he is simply a lone superhero.
To summarize, Iron Man is a better Avenger because he better exemplifies what an Avenger is. An Avenger works to his team's strengths. Through self-sacrifice, transferal of leadership, and belief in his teammates' abilities, Iron Man better exemplifies the traits of an Avenger, and can therefore be considered a greater Avenger.
Thanks, Pro, for this debate! I enjoyed it very much.
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