The Instigator
firemonkey6775
Pro (for)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
51 Points

superman could kill darth vader if he wanted

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,718 times Debate No: 1517
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (15)

 

firemonkey6775

Pro

hit me with your best shot superman has the powers and the brains to trump vader and his ridiculos saber any day.
Logical-Master

Con

Alright, I'm kinda tired, so if it's okay with you, I'm going to essentially reiterate my constructive I made in my argument with solo.

I will perform this debate by stating how the dark lord of the sith would counter Superman's powers (all except strength).

Speed: We must remember that all Jedi have shown themselves able to deflect a barrage of lasers with their uncanny light sabers. Also, during the second and third prequel, Yoda had shown himself able to deflect Lord Sidious' lightning spell with his hands alone. Scientist have estimated that a lightning bolt moves at half the speed of light or more. My point: Superman likely won't use his speed, but even if he did, Vader would easily counter it no harder than he had countered Han solo's laser blast in second film of the original trilogy.

Heat Vision: Basically the same as the criteria covered in speed.

Ice Breath: Vader should be able to dispel it with a simple force push.

Invulnerability: In the comics, it is noted that Superman's invulnerability can be bypassed by any magical force. The force in the SW universe could be defined as magic, thus it could be used effectively against Superman.

Expansion on the invulnerability argument: By the 1970s, Superman was given a bio electric aura. This aura serves to be his source of invulnerability and it is the reason his suit is never damaged. It is acknowledged that SW characters can bypass fields "barriers" and use the force to their heart's content. For instance, the force choke is performed by directly bypassing one's flesh and squeezing one's larynx. If it is indeed possible that the force doesn't serve as the equivalent to magic, Vader could just bypass this aura use the force to dispose of the kryptonian.

Finally, in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious tells Vader that he had foreseen Luke Skywalker's arrival on Endor. This justice that force wielders can see into the future. If that is the case, Vader could simply prepare for this fight days in advance.

Concerning my opponent's constructive, I question whether or not he is claiming that Superman would not be damaged by a light saber.

Any way you look at it, Vader would be the champion in a brawl with Kal-el of krpton.

I have made an edit concerning how Vader would counter Superman's strength (if all will notice, it has been removed). I believe that the above analysis alone is sufficient concerning how he can counter Superman's super strength.

I now stand ready for my opponent's rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 1
firemonkey6775

Pro

ok your argument for super speed dosnt work super man more than quickly could disarm vader of his light saber with a thundereous clap then well take care of business second you cant deflect heat vision its not laser vision its heat vision which lightsaber would do no good against. the force would drive supes crazy. but it would really be not much good if supes keept moving the force would not be as good and since super man can punch holes through ships throwing stuff at him would do no real good. second vader technically would not be fighting alone since he has the emporer's help all the time. that poses a question does super man get help.
Logical-Master

Con

My opponent states that my argument for super speed doesn't work as superman could more than quickly disarm vader of his light saber with a thunderous clap. Keep in mind that a thunder clap is a burst of air moving at the speed of sound (slower than light which jedi can already counter). Not only that, but if Superman were to perform a thunder clap, Vader could simply counter with a force wave. This would cancel out Superman's thunder clap

In response about my opponent's point concerning heat vision, I remind the audience that a laser (by definition) moves at the speed of light. Suggesting that Superman's beam does not have the same attribute only weakens my opponent's argument. Of course, I never mentioned anything about Vader needing to use his lightsaber to counter Superman's heat vision as merely dodging it would be a suitable counter.

My opponent concedes that the force would effect Superman, but that Supes would have an advantage if he kept moving. This argument is easy to counter as Darth Vader simply has to use a mind trick if Superman is able to outmaneuver his physical force abilities (not that he'd be able to, but this is just for the sake of the argument). Superman would not know when a mind trick was coming and has no means of dodging one.

I never argued that Vader would attempt to throw objects at the man of steel as I've only advocated that he could use his force push abilities as a shield to negate Superman's assaults.

Also, Vader would be fighting alone as the resolution states: Superman could kill Vader if he really wanted to. If does not state Superman (and friends) could kill Vader (and friends) if he really wanted to.

Finally, my opponent does not respond to my points concerning invulnerability, precognition, and ice breath. He also doesn't answer my question concerning the lightsaber.

And with that said, I now stand ready for my opponent's rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 2
firemonkey6775

Pro

ok i know this should go in a comment but sweet picture

one a jedi is not blocking each individual laser but is blocking the laser as an extention of the persons hand its impossible to think that they could actually block the laser the time from when it actually leaves the gun to the time it would hit the jedi is less time than he could move his light saber to hit him.

ok now super speed ok he travels at near light speed which is so fast you cant even get enough of a thought put together to create a force push strong enough(if there is such a thing) to stop a projectile at near lightspeeds. ok this part is semi rough but bare with me ok well estimate super man weighs 220-300 pounds ok and im using the speed of light as 186000 miles a second. Which would be 669,600,000 miles a hour. Using those two points super man would have roughly 108,754,261,521,499,448,732 (that's using 220 as his weight) joules of energy I don't care who you are that is going to hurt when it rams into you. Ok light saber will do nothing at that speed and he will ram straight through Vader if he moves all superman has to do is either pull a u turn or just make a path adjustment. Ok the force may be great but nothing that powerful.

"In response about my opponent's point concerning heat vision, I remind the audience that a laser (by definition) moves at the speed of light. Suggesting that Superman's beam does not have the same attribute only weakens my opponent's argument. Of course, I never mentioned anything about Vader needing to use his lightsaber to counter Superman's heat vision as merely dodging it would be a suitable counter."

In this statement you forget with any distance superman would have more than a easy time tracking vaders evasions and could tag him sooner or later.

"Also, Vader would be fighting alone as the resolution states: Superman could kill Vader if he really wanted to. If does not state Superman (and friends) could kill Vader (and friends) if he really wanted to."

This paragraph only strengthens my debate because as I said Vader would be fighting with the emperors help and there for would not be able to do anything.

Ok your turn
Logical-Master

Con

Thanks. I'm a huge fan of the series.

lol! I love the creativity of your arguments in this round (particularly the amount of force Superman could produce). This should be fun.
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My opponent states that it would be impossible for Jedi to actually block the laser without knowing what trajectory they were extending from, but this isn't the case. As acknowledged in the SW games, comics, cartoon, and books, jedi can use the force to increase the overall speeds of their bodies (although it is noted that at the beginning of episode I, Quigon and Obiwan used this ability to escape the trade federation droidekas) as well as increase their perception of time. In other words, while their speeds are drastically increase (in accordance with their control over the force), their perception of reality is comparable to our perception of "bullet time" from the Matrix films. Basically, with the force, Jedi have access to super human abilities. Otherwise, as my opponent suggest, Jedi would only be able to reflect laser fire based on anticipation of trajectories.

I would also like to state that even if Superman's speed and reflexes were too great for Vader, he could always rely on mind control. After all, by the time it takes Superman to think of speed blitzing Vader, Vader could already think to employ a mind trick. In other words, before Superman's body is able to physically carry out the action of speed blitzing his Nemesis with the amount of force my opponent mentions, Vader would have complete control over him. After that, Vader could use any number of means to dispose of the kryptonian and win the match. Contrary to what my opponent states, the force is great and extremely powerful.

In a previous debate, an opponent of mine stated that mind control does not work on Superman, but if you read "Superman #219" and "Action Comics #829
", you'll notice that the villain known as Max Lord took control over Superman's mind which nearly resulted in Batman's death.

My opponent states that Superman could just keep his distance while continually attempting to tag Vader. I submit that Vader could just counter with his force powers if need be. There's also no reason as to why he wouldn't be able to use a mind control while knowing the location of Superman.

As for fighting alone, he fought Luke alone during Empire Strikes Back, did he not? He fought Obi-wan Kenobi alone on two different occasions, no? THis certainly disproves the argument that Vader cannot fight without help.

Expansion of pre-cognition argument: Given that Vader could foresee Superman being a problem in the future, he could use his resources to locate the Man of steel (which can be done through an advanced version of force sight, or he could simply interrogate individuals around the universe who have met the Justice League . He could also just have Boba Fett find his location. After finding out Superman's location, Vader could look upon him via holo net, bypass his bio-electric field, and force choke his larynx while in the comforts of his favorite chair (similar to what he did in Empire Strikes Back).

Even if Superman wanted to, he wouldn't be able to kill Vader.
Debate Round No. 3
firemonkey6775

Pro

wow im cutting this close so here goes nothing first of all for the last time vadar can not live without the emporer giving him 24/7 life support ok next even with jedi's andvanced speed and all they cannot block a laser with out knowing the trajectory first because simpley if they went fast enough to block it from the time it exited the barrel to the time it would hit the lightsaber the amount of force would snap there arm or they would lose control of there lightsaber really nothing beats a lightspeed attack ok know if we are playing the whole tracking down and killing game well superman has an incredably deep well of alias (and Nemiesis) that span Not only space but time also. If we were to do the whole calling apon forces thing (i take this from your refrence to bobba fett) Darth vader is in deep trouble cause very quickly there would be the entire jlu on his door steep. ok next i understand mind trick is going to be my nemises for the rest of this debate but no matter what you say i dont one belivie it would work on him second lightspeed nothing beets that at that speed vadars optic sensors would probably go a blur and he would have a hard time following him let alone getting a force lock on him second what does it matter if he chokes him he dosnt need to breath he can breath in outerspace. (golden age comics are called that for a reason)

well i think i have raised my blood prassure enough for one night your turn
Logical-Master

Con

My opponent is still suggesting that Vader cannot live without the emperor giving him 24/7 life support. This is not the case as we've seen too many instances where Vader and the Emperor have been light years apart. Plus, the life support system comes from the machines, not Darth Sidious.

My opponent repeats the idea that Jedi cannot block a laser without knowing the trajectory, but as I've already stated, they are not only able increase their senses to the point to where time appears in slow motion to them, but can also gain super human speed at the same time. As far as force of the laser goes, we've never seen a Jedi get his/her armed snapped off through reflecting a laser, so my opponent is incorrect concerning that theory.

As far as tracking down goes, Superman does not have precognition. Vader has precognition, thus being the reason as to where preparation is automatically built into this match for him.

I've already explained the mind trick argument. Here is a better illustration.

Both Superman and Darth Vader walk into their arena.

Superman thinks: "If I move at my fastest, I can easily kill him."

Darth Vader thinks: "By merely thinking about it, I can mind control this weak minded fool."

Superman says: "I will now do your bidding, Lord Vader."

It's as simple as that. By the time Superman is done thinking about killing Vader in the manner my opponent suggested, Vader will already have the man of steel under his control.

As for keeping up with Superman, again, with force speed, Vader could see everything in slow motion and will have super human speed of his own to counter with, so this wouldn't be a problem.

As for breathing, the current Superman needs to breathe. It's only because of his bio electric field as well as holding his breath for long amounts of time is he able to fly through nearly any environment. As I've suggested, Vader could just bypass this bio electric field with use of the force and kill the kryptonian in the comforts of his favorite chair.

And that's all for now.
Debate Round No. 4
firemonkey6775

Pro

ok whatever you say man i have had enough of this you aint seeing what i am saying.
im just going to say whatever you say man i still think superman would do better nothing beats lightspeed and i would say superman has a noble enough attitude to make it through any thing but what ever you say man.

but i would love to debate the spiderman batman thing i get batman ok
Logical-Master

Con

In his final round, my opponent dropped all of my arguments. Therefore, you can extend my entire case.

Concerning Superman being noble enough to win, the resolution states that superman could kill Darth Vader if he wanted to. Given that Superman believes killing to be "un-noble", my opponents point is hence a contradiction to his defense of the resolution.

Closing statements: With my entire case extended, my opponent essentially concedes to my arguments, thus being the main reason the con wins today's debate. I like Superman and believe him to be very powerful, but even if he wanted to kill Darth Vader, he wouldn't be able to considering how Darth Vader would always have time to prepare for Superman due to precognition. Not to mention that Vader could kill Superman while being in a different quadrant of the universe or he could simply mind control him if the two confronted each other. Vader wins against the man of steel hands down.

With that said, I thank my opponent for having this debate and look forward to debates with him in the future. I also would like to thank the audience for reading.

Good night.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
I'll start that Spiderman vs Batman debate tomorrow as I have more pressing matters to attend right now. Later. :D
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