The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
bookwyrm
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

that islamic belief in getting a bunch of virgins upon death shows it is a false religion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
bookwyrm
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 951 times Debate No: 62556
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

that islamic belief in getting a bunch of virgins upon death shows it is a false religion

that is pandering to human desire. in the here and now, it would be wrong to have a bunch of virgins and have sex and such with all of them. so suddenly the afterlife makes it okay? it's like rewarding indulgence etc. it shows the religion is based on sand.
bookwyrm

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for issuing this challenge. I look forward to a good debate. Since there were no rules specified about which rounds allow arguments, I will provide my arguments starting now.

The definition of religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." (1) Since Islam meets this criteria, it therefore follows that it is, in fact, a valid religion. Plus, reward in the afterlife is common in almost every religion, and reward is usually centered around human desire. The Christian afterlife, for example, mentions streets of gold, feasts, and several other things that are centered around the human desires for beauty and indulgence. Also, seeing as how the idea of 72 virgins isn't actually found in the Qu'ran, it can't really be stated that it is an intrinsic part of the religion. I have more arguments at the ready, but I'll wait for them to see how my opponent responds to what I've said thus far.

1. http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

"Even though the Qur'an does not mention the number of virgins, it does say in verse 56:36[27] that Muslim men will be awarded with virgins in Paradise. The Qur'an describes their physical attributes, for example they will have large eyes (56:22) and big breasts (78:33)[20] and so on. The actual number of houri is thus a minor issue and 72 is the number of those houris confirmed in multiple hadith. The hadiths are a crucial part of Islam and certain Muslims ignore them because sometimes they contain uncomfortable details about Islam. There are many hadiths and Qur'anic verses which talk about various issues of a sexual nature. According to Sahih Bukhari 1:5:268 which belongs to the most authentic collection of hadiths, Muhammad himself was given the sexual strength of 30 men and so on."
bookwyrm

Con

That may be the case, but the resolution is about whether or not the idea of these virgins makes Islam a false religion. I don't see an any way why it does. The virgins might be an appeal to human desires, but so is the biblical description of heaven. Beauty is one of the many human desires. We like to have something pretty to look at. Heaven is described as having streets of gold, buildings of jasper, and the foundations of the walls were said to be garnished with all manner of precious stones. (1) Some might say the difference is that sex is an immoral desire, but this isn't inherently true. Sex in and of itself isn't necessarily immoral. It is seen as immoral in predominantly Christian cultures, but that isn't universal morality. There are plenty of valid religions and cultures that celebrate and revere sex. Even the word orgy comes from the Greek orgia, meaning secret worship. (2) We view such activity today as reprehensible, but that has not always been the case. Religions and cultures have varied throughout time as far is what is permissible and what is not. So just because Islam uses sex as an afterlife reward in no way invalidates it as a religion any more than a heaven full of jewels invalidates Christianity. Both are using human desires as promises of an enjoyable afterlife.

1. http://shieldoffaith62.blogspot.com...
2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

even according to islam having sex with a bunch of virgins is considered wrong. suddenly the afterlife makes it okay? we see this is a weak position to hold, undermining the religion itself. say what you will about sex, at least other religions are more consistent.
bookwyrm

Con

If a religion contradicting itself made it a "false religion", then every religion would be considered false. The debate parameters said that the virgins after death makes it a false religion, but nothing about that makes it not fit the definition of religion. Therefore Pro has failed to show why it doesn't qualify as a religion. Had the parameters said immoral religion or incorrect religion, then my opponent would have a point, but I wouldn't have accepted the debate because I agree with that. Virgins included, it still fits the definition of religion I provided, so it still qualifies as a valid religion. Vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TrustmeImlying 3 years ago
TrustmeImlying
GoOrDin:

Lust as a reward for following any god's commandments is a possible indicator that the commandments in question were written by men. Men who were only intelligent enough to conclude that "ultimate pleasure" must be a bunch of "pure" women to have sex with for eternity.

Never mind the logistical contradictions of stating that there will be more men than women in paradise, yet there will be several dozen women for every man. You've been sold a bill of goods here.

Evidence for the tales of Jews in Egypt (of which there would be much) does not exist, and the stories you may believe about the pyramids and a great exodus complete with seas parting and hardened hearts is nothing more than that. Tales.

There's a whole list of questions that come to mind when considering the moral and realistic possibility of the claims in the Qur'an and Bible. These questions don't negate the books by themselves, but add more doubt to already doubtful claims.
Posted by GoOrDin 3 years ago
GoOrDin
numbers*** rounding is legal. You don't have to give specific numbers.** derp :S *!*
Posted by GoOrDin 3 years ago
GoOrDin
The religion is only false if - you truly associate the Term Muslim and Islam with anyone but the high-jackers who like atheists stole all Good from the term, but don't actually accuse any faithful men.

A man having many virgin brides in heaven is in no way an indicator of Islam being false.

God killed the entire generation of Egyptians first born sons, who never grew up to be sinners, in a age when there were 1 000 000 JEWS in Egypt.

truly there will be virgins in heaven who will only seek the company of faithful individuals.
Posted by SpiffyTexan 3 years ago
SpiffyTexan
The Koran didn't say 72 virgins, it said 1- 72 year old virgin.
Posted by Geogeer 3 years ago
Geogeer
Just a quick link for Duncan.

http://wikiislam.net...

1. "The Qur'an doesn't talk about 72 virgins, only the hadiths"
Even though the Qur'an does not mention the number of virgins, it does say in verse 56:36[27] that Muslim men will be awarded with virgins in Paradise. The Qur'an describes their physical attributes, for example they will have large eyes (56:22) and big breasts (78:33)[20] and so on. The actual number of houri is thus a minor issue and 72 is the number of those houris confirmed in multiple hadith. The hadiths are a crucial part of Islam and certain Muslims ignore them because sometimes they contain uncomfortable details about Islam. There are many hadiths and Qur'anic verses which talk about various issues of a sexual nature. According to Sahih Bukhari 1:5:268 which belongs to the most authentic collection of hadiths, Muhammad himself was given the sexual strength of 30 men and so on.
Posted by Duncan 3 years ago
Duncan
The 72 virgins thing isn't in the Qur'an. As far as I recall, it was an Imam that made that claim.
Posted by TrustmeImlying 3 years ago
TrustmeImlying
Aren't infinite pleasure sort of the cornerstone of all "good" afterlives?

The Abrahamic religions especially discuss much about disregarding our earthly desires (wealth, sex, gluttony) to be showered these same riches later in Gan Eden, Heaven, or Jannah.

Infinite streets of gold, jewels, and feasts don't seem too terribly different than infinite sex in the grand scheme. After all, they're all pleasures to be moderated here on Earth.

But man, if I had a choice between the two...

I also find it interesting that only men are rewarded virgins (with very specific physical attributes and impossible standards, like not going to the bathroom or menstruating) and women receive only one man and "will be satisfied with him".

Utter disrespect for women aside, I've never quite understood the idea of abstaining to gain later, like some sort of odd sexual stock investment.
Posted by Emilrose 3 years ago
Emilrose
No wonder they don't mind blowing themselves up if they believe that's what they're gonna get.
Posted by republicofdhar 3 years ago
republicofdhar
I am willing to debate this, if you would let me.
Posted by Geogeer 3 years ago
Geogeer
What's even more bizarre is that the majority of those in hell are women. Where do the women come from?

The denizens of Hell were commanded to get into Hell, and I stood upon the door of Fire and the majority amongst them who entered there was that of women.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 3 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
dairygirl4u2cbookwyrmTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: As religion was defined by Pro, Con has every right to use the definition put forward by themselves. As Pro never challenges this, and does no provide their own, this validates Cons arguments. Argument points to Con. BTW, The whole concept of the virgins in heaven could be debated in many ways considering they are also meant to be giantesses. I am not going to give source points, as a blog and a dictionary are not worthy of source points.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 3 years ago
bladerunner060
dairygirl4u2cbookwyrmTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to establish what about the belief in virgins made Islam a false religion. As Con noted, other religions have similar promises, and Pro just never gave us a clear reason why THIS promise makes Islam false.