The Instigator
sbfwu
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
zmikecuber
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

the Catholic Church is Evil

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
zmikecuber
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/27/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 753 times Debate No: 47964
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

sbfwu

Pro

The catholic church has had several inquisitions resulting in the deaths of many people.
The church than took all their property for their own. These people were bloody smart too
Although the Inquisition was technically forbidden from permanently harming or drawing blood, this still allowed for methods of torture. The methods most used, and common in other secular and ecclesiastical tribunals, were garrucha, toca and the potro. The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the victim from the ceiling by the wrists, which are tied behind the back. Sometimes weights were tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which the arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated.[64] The toca, also called interrogatorio mejorado del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning (see: waterboarding).[65] The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently. EVIL=Church
zmikecuber

Con

I accept. The burden of proof shall be on my opponent to show that the Catholic Church is evil.

Plagiarism

My opponent's entire case is plagiarized from wikipedia.

Wikipedia states:

The methods most used, and common in other secular and ecclesiastical tribunals, were garrucha, toca and the potro.[60] The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the victim from the ceiling by the wrists, which are tied behind the back. Sometimes weights were tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which the arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated.[64] The toca, also called interrogatorio mejorado del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning (see: waterboarding).[65] Thepotro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently. (1)

Sound familliar?

This right here should result in a loss of points.

A formalized version of my opponent's argument
My opponent's argument is essentially:

P1: Any organization which has ever inflicted torture on people is an evil organization.
P2: The Catholic Church is an organization which has inflicted torture on people.
C: The Catholic Churc is an evil organization.

This is a valid BARBARA categorical syllogism (2), and it captures the gist of my opponent's argument.

Since the burden of proof is on my opponent, he must show that the premises are true. He has not done so, so the argument cannot yet be considered sound and his burden has not been met.

However, the first premise is very questionable. An organization is nothing else other than the people that make it up. Just because an organization at one time inflicted torture on people, we cannot necessarily say this is an evil organization.

Conclusion
My opponent's argument is entirely plagiarized, and is unfounded. All he has done is make bare assertions and copy and paste from wikipedia.

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(2)http://upload.wikimedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
sbfwu

Pro

ok. It was but I was just making a point. Wikipedia is made and corrected by the public. In most books I read it says whenever converted Jews were were suspected of secretly practicing the Sabbath they were tortured and forced to admit this. once they admitted,they were burned at stake. Then the greedy church would take all of the people's items for their own. Plus back then
almost all the Bishops, priests, etc were rich. What happened to taking an oath of poverty! The Christians also went on to attack the Muslims and try to kill them all. Thousands died in those campaigns. All because they didn't want to share Jerusalem. Ever heard of Charlemagne? During the Saxon wars he beheaded 4500 Saxons that he caught praying to their own gods after he converted them to Christianity.
zmikecuber

Con

Plagiarism
My opponent has conceded that he plagiarized his entire argument. This alone suffices for a major loss of points.

Ignoring my arguments
My opponent has ignored my arguments. He simply repeats unsourced negative things about the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, it rests upon the premise that any organization which does these things, or has members which does these things is a bad organization. This is unjustified.

Equating the members with the Catholic Church
My opponent also seems to be equating any self proclaimed Catholic as "the Catholic Church."

We can easily make a parrallel between this, and members in a country.

Jeffrey Dahmer was an American citizen. He killed and cannibalized many people. (1) Does this mean that America is evil? Of course not. To equate one of the world's largest religious organizations with a few of its members is simply unfair and absurd.

Rebuttals
"In most books I read it says whenever converted Jews were were suspected of secretly practicing the Sabbath they were tortured and forced to admit this. once they admitted,they were burned at stake."

Please give references of some sort so we can know this is true. Even if it is true, I have shown that it does not follow from this that the Catholic Church is inherently evil.

"Plus back then
almost all the Bishops, priests, etc were rich. What happened to taking an oath of poverty!"

Unfortunately, bishops and priests do not take a vow of poverty. (2) So this is simply irellevant. And once again, even if priests and bishops were rich and corrupted at one time, how would it follow from this that the Catholic Church is inherently evil?

"The Christians also went on to attack the Muslims and try to kill them all. Thousands died in those campaigns. All because they didn't want to share Jerusalem."

I once again fail to see how this is relevant. Thomas Madden states: "the crusade, first and foremost, was a war against Muslims for the defense of the Christian faith...They began as a result of a Muslim conquest of Christian territories." (3)

"Ever heard of Charlemagne? During the Saxon wars he beheaded 4500 Saxons that he caught praying to their own gods after he converted them to Christianity."

Which I believe he should not have done, but which was done in response to a Saxon revolt. The Royal Frankish Annals states:

"When he heard this [the death of his subjects in battle], the Lord King Charles rushed to the place with all the Franks that he could gather on short notice and advanced to where the Aller flows into the Weser. Then all the Saxons came together again, submitted to the authority of the Lord King, and surrendered the evildoers who were chiefly responsible for this revolt to be put to death—four thousand and five hundred of them. This sentence was carried out...When he had finished this business, the Lord King returned to Francia." (4)

Counter-arguments
What about Catholic Charities? This organizations serves over 10,000,000 (that's ten million) people a year, and distributed $4.7 billion to the poor in 2010. (5)

I can sum this up very briefly.

P1: No organization which feeds millions of poor people is evil.
P2: The Catholic Church is an organization which feeds millions of poor people.
C: The Catholic Church is not evil.

Conclusion
My opponent has plagiarized and provided unsourced statements. As I've shown, even if we accept what my opponent says on face value, it simply does not follow that the Catholic Church is evil. I've provided examples to the contrary. I will admit that many people in the Catholic Church are sinful, and some even morally depraved, however, the Catholic Church as a whole cannot shown to be inherently evil. My opponent has not done so.

The resolution remains unaffirmed.

(1)http://crime.about.com...
(2)http://catholicexchange.com...
(3)Thomas F. Madden (2005) The New Concise History of the Crusades Rowman & Littlefield. pp. xii, 4, 8.
(4) The Royal Frankish Annals, Scholz (1970:61)
(5)http://www.economist.com...
Debate Round No. 2
sbfwu

Pro

sbfwu forfeited this round.
zmikecuber

Con

FF. Please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by zmikecuber 2 years ago
zmikecuber
@CynicalDiogenes

But the Catholic church is still the mostest evilstest organization to plague the earth.
Posted by CynicalDiogenes 2 years ago
CynicalDiogenes
Here are a few facts about the inquisition:
1.Only about 6000 people were killed during the entire inquisition.
2.The inquisition was more humane than most secular courts of the time.There were even recorded cases of convicts who purposely blasphemed to get tried at the inquisition.

See the catholic side of the story also before jumping to conclusions:
http://www.catholic.com...
Posted by sbfwu 2 years ago
sbfwu
but the church technically controlled the government. the monarchy did whatever the pope said
Posted by sbfwu 2 years ago
sbfwu
And I read about the Spanish inquisition enough to know that the Catholics in that time were greedy power hungry
Posted by zmikecuber 2 years ago
zmikecuber
The Church didn't execute anyone. It was the state that did it.

There was no separation of Church and state back then. Revolting against the Church was like revolting against the government.
Posted by sbfwu 2 years ago
sbfwu
I went to a Catholic school
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
Kid please go back to school. When you've advanced past whatever grade teaches about plagiarism, come back.
Posted by sbfwu 2 years ago
sbfwu
Back then and today
Posted by demonlord343 2 years ago
demonlord343
You do realize you are asking for a Catholic right? Lol
Posted by JustAnotherGuy 2 years ago
JustAnotherGuy
Is this debating the Church of today or just the church over all time.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 2 years ago
Krazzy_Player
sbfwuzmikecuberTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro plagiarised and lost conduct for the forfeit.
Vote Placed by WWJD1245 2 years ago
WWJD1245
sbfwuzmikecuberTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Vote Placed by Sojourner 2 years ago
Sojourner
sbfwuzmikecuberTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Con due to Pro's plagiarism and forfeit in R3. S&G to Con due to Pro's lack of proper capitalization and punctuation. Argements to Con due to Pro's bare assertion arguments which were fully rebutted by Con. Sources to Con as Pro had none.