The Instigator
imsmarterthanyou98
Pro (for)
Winning
15 Points
The Contender
janetsanders733
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

the Christian Bible is Self-Contradictory

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Post Voting Period
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after 10 votes the winner is...
imsmarterthanyou98
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/20/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,716 times Debate No: 40971
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (171)
Votes (10)

 

imsmarterthanyou98

Pro

I will be debating that statments in the Christian Bible are Self-Contradictory
The only rules are:
1.Must use logic
2.First round acceptance
3.second round Opening statements
4.Third round rebuttals and closeing statements
janetsanders733

Con

Thank you Pro. I accept, state your case.
Debate Round No. 1
imsmarterthanyou98

Pro

Thank you con for accepting this debate with me I'm certainly looking forward to a interesting debate.

First Let's point out exactly what the Christian bible being self contradictory means and what a logical contradiction is.

The definition of contradictory from Merriam-Webster

Definition of CONTRADICTORY

: a proposition so related to another that if either of the two is true the other is false and if either is false the other must be true.

Now let's look at some of the contradictions of the bible within genesis.

Gen 32:30 states, “…for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

However, John 1:18 states, “No man hath seen God at any time…”

Both statements cannot be true. Either there is an error of fact, or an error of translation. In either case, there is an logical contradiction.

A defense used here is to look up the meaning of the original Hebrew / Greek word and read that one of the words can have multiple meanings, and then pick the meaning that seems to break the contradiction however this is irrelevant in cases like this where simple declarative statements are involved such as “no one has seen God” and “I have seen God.” Simply put, no “context” makes a contradiction or a false statement, like 4 = 3, true.

These are just some of the many many contradictions within the bible .

Matt 19:26 says “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. “ Judges 1:19 says “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”

Mark 15:25 says “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” John 19:14-16 says “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Is god peaceful?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

We can clearly and logically conclude that the Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions and this is the supposed work of an all omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient omnibenevolent God?

Surely not.

References

The King James version of the Bible.

Self-Contradictions of the Bible by William Henry Burr (written in 1859 as a response to fundamentalism).

The X-Rated Bible: An Irreverent Survey of Sex in the Scriptures by Ben Edward Akerley

The Bible Handbook. (This is a compilation of several previous works by several authors, including W.P. Ball, G.W. Foote, and John Bowden. It's a collection of biblical contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, immoralities, indecencies, obscenities, unfulfilled prophecies and broken promises. This 372-page volume will give the atheist tons of scriptural ammunition for shooting down the flimsy arguments of the reality impaired.)

http://www.patheos.com...

http://www.evilbible.com...

http://ffrf.org...


http://bibviz.com...

janetsanders733

Con

The Bible has one consistent message from beginning to end. That man is sin, and that we are under God's judgment for our sins.
But, God loved us so much he sent his son to die for our sins, so that if we believe in him we will have eternal life.


1. It is unique in its continuity

But the Bible stands alone. It was written
over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some
were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings,
shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in
three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet
they wrote with agreement and harmony. They wrote in dungeons, in temples, on
beaches, and on hillsides, during peacetime and during war. Yet their words
sound like they came from the same source. So even though 10 people today
couldn’t write on one controversial subject and agree, God picked 40 different
people to write the Bible—and it stands the test of time.




2. UNITY OF NARRATIVE MATERIAL

Many of the Bible writers used historic narrative to record the events that were pertinent to their particular writings. Stories such as Noah’s ark and the Flood, the ten plagues in Egypt, and Daniel being thrown to the lions are recognized even among those with little Bible knowledge. A systematic study of the 66 books of the Bible quickly reveals an amazing unity between these books when they deal with such narratives.

A lot of times or majority of the time, the bible uses prose, hyperboyle, and metronomy to explain events to point to a specific message.



3. Unity of Writing Styles:
The Bible is unique in the writing styles it addresses. The Bible from OT to NT, can be split into different writing styles.
With all the unique writing styles, it adds to the uniquness and historicity of the Bible.
Epistle/Letter
Epistles were personal correspondences written to a particular party. They were written for a particular church or individual, and often addressed several topics. These letters were written with a familiarity of the areas or problems being discussed and with an apostolic tone of authority.
Genealogical
Genealogies, in the Bible, are lists that document a family lineage. These lists of names cover many generations (sometimes even skipping generations), showing lines of descent over many centuries at times. They provide us with an important historical record that is sometimes used to prove who someone is.
Historical Narrative
Historical narratives are factual accounts, written in prose, of what happened at a certain time and place, and involve people, nations, and events. The writers of these historical records often did not make judgments on what was happening. They only reported what actually occurred, both good (healings, miracles, etc.) and bad (murder, theft, etc). With that being the case, when making judgments, historical narratives must be viewed and interpreted in the full light of Scripture.
Law/Statutory

Much of the first five books of the Bible is statutory in nature. Old Testament laws are worth understanding, as they show us what God required of His people. Although many of the laws are no longer applicable (such as priestly laws), they still teach us what God is like and help us understand what He desires of us.
Parable
Parables are a unique style of communicating stories, and are used to illustrate a single point. They were often used by Jesus in the Gospels. There are also a few parables in the Old Testament (Trees making a king, Judges 9:7-15; The Parable of the Ewe Lamb, 2 Samuel 12:1-4, etc.). Although parables always had a message, they were often designed to prevent some people from correctly understanding what was being said at the immediate time (Mark 4:10-12).
Poetry
Some of the best poetry ever written is found in God’s Word. Some books in the Old Testament are written entirely in poetry
Prophecy
A prophetic utterance in the Bible means “to foretell or proclaim.” The prophets acted as God’s spokesmen, prophesying His message (which was usually a warning and a call to righteousness).
Almost every book of the Bible contains some kind of prophecy. Often times, a prophecy had immediate relevance to the people to whom it was given.
Proverbial/Wisdom Literature
Proverbs and wisdom literature are short statements of truth for common and general rules of life (which have exceptions).


4. MORAL UNITY OF THE BIBLE:


The books of the Bible contain various moral themes that are treated consistently throughout the entire 66-book canon.
A list of all such themes would exhaust the reader’s patience, and would require a document comparable in length to the Bible itself.
A brief sample, however, of these moral issues proves interesting and valuable to the overall discussion of the Bible’s unity.

Sources:

https://www.apologeticspress.org...
http://www.pinpointevangelism.com...
http://carm.org...

Debate Round No. 2
imsmarterthanyou98

Pro

Thank you Con.Now let’s take a closer look at Cons arguments.

1. It is unique in its continuity”
 
But the Bible stands alone. It was written 
over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life.”
The bible does not stand alone.There are many Holy books claming to be the true word of god.
Such as the Qur'an in Islam or the Veda in Hinduism and many many others that declare no affliation with the bible.
 

“3. Unity of Writing Styles:

With all the unique writing styles, it adds to the uniquness and historicity of the Bible.”
Actually we very well know that The Bible is at odds with the actual history of its times and often t
ells stories upon which there is no evidence to support. The greatest of these is the alleged exodus out of Egypt.
It didn’t happen. The same applies to the story of Esther. It routinely gets the history of surrounding civilizations wrong
such as crediting a “Darius the Mede” with the taking of Babylon when it was Cyrus of Persia.
 
4. MORAL UNITY OF THE BIBLE:
Moral unity?The Bible potrays Ritual human Sacrifice , Rape , Murder , Slavery ,…
There is no unity in the bible it says to kill the worshiper of other gods but love thy neighbor as thy self? 
 
Furthermore,none of these statements offer reason to belive that the bible is not self contradictory which is what this debate is all about.
So in closeing biblical teachings fundamentally distort humanity's moral purview. God, in his infinite compassion and wisdom, had ample room in the Bible to instruct us on how to kill people, keep slaves , and sacrifice a wide consortium of different animals. On numerous occasions he even advocates that we kill people for imaginary crimes like witchcraft. In fact, the Bible, if followed word for word, provides for a system of ethics that would make Mullah Omar of the Taliban look like Lyndon B. Johnson in comparison. Those who doubt this claim need only spend a few hours actually reading the Christian scriptures. Look anywhere you want for the warrant for slavery, for the subjugation of women, for the burning and flogging of homosexuals, for the abuse of animals, for the torture and slaughter of apostates, for ethnic cleansing, and racism: you don't need to look any farther than the bible. Let’s not for get that this is the work of a mighty
janetsanders733

Con

I don’t have enough room to copy his first paragraph. Instead I will respond to it. Pro is using a huge assumption that is completely false. He seems to put the cart before the horse, and argues from one verse without actually studying the context of that verse. He then jumps to his conclusion that the context doesn’t eradicate this contradiction, without actually proving any evidence to the contrary.


So I will go ahead answer Con’s objections.


But first, I would like to actually use the “Law of Non-Contradiction” to help Con, and the voters understand how these supposed “contradictions” can be cleared up.


The Law of non-contradiction is one of the basic laws in classical logic. It states that something cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context.


For example:



1. It’s raining outside.


2. It is not raining outside.



If we are talking about different places, then the statements don’t contradict each other, and consequently, they can both be true.


So, let’s use the Law of Non-Contradiction, for all these verses that Con lists.


Genesis 32:30 put in Context has to do with Jacob wrestling with God. Jacob did not see God the Father, wrather he saw Christ before his incarnation.


John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (Con made the mistake of not finishing up this verse, he only put “No one has ever seen God). What John is saying is that again no one has seen God the father except Jesus(Son).


So are these two passages Genesis 32:30 and John 1:18 a contradiction? No. They are simply saying that no one has seen the Father except Jesus(Son).






Matt 19:26 says “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. “ Judges 1:19 says “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”


Matthew 19:26 put in context is where Jesus was telling a rich man how he can enter heaven. The disciples in verse 25: “Who then can be saved”? That is why in v26 Jesus was saying that men can’t save themselves. Only Jesus who is God can save man.


Judges 1:19 Is referring to God using the Israelites to Judge the Canaanites. But, God had forsaken the Israelites because they did not have faith that he was going to help them win against the Canaanites. It was not because they had chariots of iron.


Again, there’s no contradiction between Matthew 19:26 or Judges 1:19 since they are different events taken in context within Biblical History.


Mark 15:25 says “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” John 19:14-16 says “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”


The difference is the system of time that Mark wrote in, and John wrote in. Mark, wrote in the Jewish times of day, while John wrote in the Roman times of day. (Roman time of Day is 12 a.m.- 11:59 p.m., which is the same as English time of day).


Jewish Time:


Third hour--6am-9am


Sixth hour--9am-12pm


Ninth hour--12pm-3pm


Twelfth hour--3pm-6pm


First Watch--6pm-9pm


Second Watch--9pm-12am


Third Watch--12am-3am


Fourth Watch--3am-6am


Roman Time:


Sixth Time: 6 a.m.



So as you can see there is no contradiction here. Mark is writing in the Jewish hour, while John is writing in the Roman hour.


God good to all, or just a few?



PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.



JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.


Psalm 145:9 and Jeremiah 13:14 do not contradict. Jeremiah 13:14 is a parable of the wine jars. In this parable, "The bottles represent all the people, and the wine represents the wrath of God."


God did not want them to die, but to live. However, they would not repent and turn to him, so God had to pour out his justice against their sins. No contradiction found here.




Is god peaceful?



EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.



ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


Exodus 15:3 is a poetic song that Moses made for God, after he helped the cross the Red Sea, and defeated Pharoah’s army. That doesn’t disprove Romans 15:33.



Conclusion:


When we use the Law of non-contradiction and apply it to scripture it works. Con’s arguments are not withstanding. The Bible does not contradict itself.


Sources:


http://philochristos.blogspot.com...


http://carm.org...


http://www.biblestudytools.com...


http://biblehub.com...


http://www.biblegateway.com...


http://www.biblestudytools.com...


http://workmenforchrist.org...


Debate Round No. 3
171 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Neither are your faith based sites.
Posted by janetsanders733 2 years ago
janetsanders733
Sagey, project-reason, is not a peer-reviewed or archaeological site.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
BTW: I've looked at all of Janet's Facts that are not Facts.

All of Janet's Facts are indeed plays on Semantics.
Semantics is only considered evidence to ancient Philosophers like Plato, but in the modern world, Semantics cannot be ever considered as evidence, nor can Semantics be considered as Factual.
The Bible is Not Consistent in any way, my reading of it demonstrated that clearly.

The Bible is Chronological, Biologically and Geologically Inept.
The Bible is only a Theological construct that contains absolutely no Verifiable evidence that can confirm anything as Factual. Playing with words (semantics) cannot produce facts.
Only Young Earth Creationists think playing with words produces facts.
That is why they keep getting laughed out of court.

There are too many flaws and faults in the Bible to mention.
http://www.project-reason.org...
I'll let Project Reason show you the Hundreds of Contradictions and Conflicts in the Bible Scriptures.
Which is certainly evidence that no Consistency of any form, Theological or Chronological, exists in the Bible.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Yes Jesus was the Messiah prophesied by fraudulent books, (Genesis and Numbers).
Thus the prophesies were false and so was the birthright attributed to Jesus.

Jesus had no real Messiah role to fulfill, it never existed.
Jesus preached and was executed for nothing.

There is no evidence that Jesus was the Son Of God.
There is no evidence that Jesus Rose From The Dead.
The french tale could even be true, that Jesus survived the hanging, took the already pregnant, Mary Magdalene to France and quietly raised some children.

There is no evidence to confirm, that even the french tale is false.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Actually OtakuJordan, none of the Old Testament was written by Moses (if he existed, which is now unlikely), though it was supposedly written a century or more afterwards by somebody trying to view the story of Moses as if he was Moses, so the Journalist style is reasonable if this is considered.
Yet Bible bashing crazies kept trying to tell me at the time, since I was a young student in the theology class, that it was from Moses himself. Which after reading it, as I said previously, I realized that they were indeed wrong. A more recent study into the History of the Old Testament and how it was re-written in the same style that Constantine rewrote the Bible centuries later.
So the Old Testament has been changed and re-edited numerous times, nothing was ever written by a man called Mosheh/Moses, Jewish Archaeologists/Scholars have confirmed that Exodus was fraudulent, so recent discoveries, confirmed my original suspicions.
That is all.

What I believed at 18 to be Fraudulent ( The Books Of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy), where the Ten Commandments exist), has now been confirmed by Archaeology and Anthropology.
That is All!

If the Exodus never happened, all the wandering and preaching to the saved slaves that did not exist, is fraudulent. Thus all the books attributed to Moses.
This makes the entire foundation of Christianity and Islam false.
Posted by OtakuJordan 2 years ago
OtakuJordan
"Actually, I knew Moses was a fraud when I read the Bible like a novel.
It was obvious, since nobody, apart from an idiot, writes about themselves from the perspective of a partially disinterested third party viewpoint, as much of Exodus, describing Moses ascending from the mountain is written in. That journalistic style of prose, supposedly coming from the man himself automatically smells like a con."

This claim would require a careful study of the literary style of the time for it to carry any weight.
Posted by janetsanders733 2 years ago
janetsanders733
I think I am going to report your profile.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
BTW M8!

I sort of should attack you over that silly Opinion post you created.

That was another of the many extremely dumb things coming from you.

LOL! <|:-D& Put my Boy Scout Woggle On, So You'd better "Be Prepared"!
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
I'm not acting like a court Jester.

I'm just questioning and criticizing your naivety.
That's not being a court jester, you are simply sore at the fact you cannot possibly win.
How about I challenge you in a debate concerning the points raised by Bart Ehrman.
Like "There Is Verifiable, Impartial, Eye-Witness Evidence For The Miracles and Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth" and make you the Pro.
Though as Archaeology goes Jesus of Nazareth, could possibly be called Jesus of Nowhere, since it has been found by Geologists that Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus, it was built in the second century CE.
So Jesus most likely never even visited Nazareth, let alone originate from there.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info...
Posted by janetsanders733 2 years ago
janetsanders733
Sagey, please stay away from my profile and my debates. You have lost my respect because of the way you act towards others and me.

If you want to act like that Court Jester on your profile picture, then fine. But your behavior and attitude is childish at best.
10 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
SimpleObserverofThings
imsmarterthanyou98janetsanders733Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro you picked a very good topic to which I wouldn't mind debating with Con one day but copying and pasting isn't the way to go bro...
Vote Placed by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro Copies two brief paragraphs at the beginning and end of round two that appear to be unattributed but It looks like there are several websites that use the quotes so its hard to tell. Con copies the majority of round 2 but cites the sources. I'm with NiqashMotawadi3, I'm just going to remove my vote. Good topic, some good thoughts round 3. There's no reason to copy. Stop copying!
Vote Placed by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
imsmarterthanyou98janetsanders733Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Both plagiarized. I withdraw my vote.
Vote Placed by DudeStop 3 years ago
DudeStop
imsmarterthanyou98janetsanders733Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: There is actually a hilarious video titled,: Bible Contradictions quiz show, and it states the dozens of contradictions in the bible. I give grammar to con, and arguments to pro for pointing out contradictions, which was basically his only job. Con was also very vague.
Vote Placed by MikeNH 3 years ago
MikeNH
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Reasons for voting decision: I would say everything was pretty even other than arguments. Pro did a better job directly contending Con's points with specific information, and I didn't feel Con did any demonstrating Pro's assertions were false, but rather spent more time making assertions.
Vote Placed by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
imsmarterthanyou98janetsanders733Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - Pro seems to copy word for word from http://www.freethoughtdebater.org/2011/12/30/bible-errors-and-contradictions/ Also, the misquote (leaving off half the verse as pointed out by CON ) is not good conduct. S&G - tied (but I LOL'd at con's use of claming in place of claiming - see http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Claming) Arguments - Con's point "The bible does not stand alone.There are many Holy books claming to be the true word of god." shows that CON did not understand "1600 years and 40 writers" but spoke of the Quran (muslims claim it was dictated to Muhammad (pbuh) over a period of approximately 23 years. Since the debate is about contradictions in the text of the Bible, outside sources are of less value than the Bible itself. I loved the quote from Philochristos blog site.
Vote Placed by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in the comments.
Vote Placed by supershamu 3 years ago
supershamu
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Reasons for voting decision: This was quite an interesting debate and I have always wondered on this subject myself. Seeing Pro's initial contradictions he pointed out, I has a bit suspicious that they were used out of context and as the Con pointed out they where. This point I felt was a great defense for Con and I don't feel like any of Pro's arguments really dug in deep. However Con's initial statement about the bible's unity I didn't feel was particularly effective or relevant but do reinforce some of his statements later. Both sides used primarily biased sources but honestly you can't really argue this without using biased sources so it is a tie there. I did notice a spelling problem or two in Con's argument so I gave the points to Pro for that. This was a good debate though and I very much enjoyed reading it
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 3 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro did well in this debate to point out contradictions in the bible which Con got around, by saying they are not contradictions if they occurred in two different books. This is true but absurd, in that the Bible is meant to be accurate and not contain contradictions which it clearly does as Pro pointed out. I awarded Grammar and spelling to Pro, as Cons initial argument looked like a cut and paste job and was difficult to read. Source and conduct points go to both debaters as they conducted themselves well and both cited sources. Good debate.