The Instigator
brokenboy
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
mcc1789
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

the Qur'an holds more truth and is more advance in a sense than the bible.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/26/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,015 times Debate No: 13225
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (5)

 

brokenboy

Pro

rules:
No putting down the other faith both must be properly respected.
No involvement with the belifs of the taliban and other groups like them beacuse many muslims agree that they are misguided by their belifs.
When showing evidence please mention the placement within the koran or bible.
By truthful i mean proven.
Any other rules my opponent would like to add please send in a message and i will take into account.

Now to begin my debates i will first show how the bible contradicts itself and the world known facts.
1) Gospel of Matthew CH.4:V8: The devil took jesus to the top of a really high mountain and showed jesus all of the earth and its beauty. Even if you go to the tallest mountain in the world with lets say a super far seeing telescope you will still not be able to see what is on the oposite side of the world the only way you would see is if the earth was flat so basically the bible still suggested that the earth was flat.
2) Book of Daniel CH.4:V10-11: A tree grew so much that everyone in the world could see this tree this could only happen if the earth was flat once again proving my argument.
3) First book of chronicles CH.16:V.30: it is mentioned that the earth does not move.
4) Book of Psalms CH.93:V.1: god has established and stoped the movment of he earth.( this completes num 3 )
5) Gospel of John CH.14:V.28: the bible clearly states that jesus is not god in fact in the part of the bible as indicated he says my father is greater than I. Gospel of John CH.10:V.29: my father is greater than all.
6) Book of Genisis CH.1 it says that god created the earth in six days due to science we now no that this is not possible.
7) Book of Genisis CH.1:V.14-19: it says that the light was created on the fourth day and yet vegitation was built on the third day how can the plants grow or survive if there was no light there.
8) Book of Genisis CH.1:V.9-13: it says that the earth was created during the day how can this be true beacuse night and day rely on the earth to rotate on its axis so therefore while god was creating it there would be no night and day.
9) Book of Genisis CH.1:V.16: it says in the bible that god created two lights one (the greater light) for day the other (lesser light) for night this is in fact incorrect beacuse we now know that the moon is reflected light.
10) this is where the bible contradicts itself by saying in the book of psalms CH.102 and the book of hebrews CH.1 that the earth and the heavens will perish the exact opposite is mentioned in the Book of Ecclesiastes CH.1 and the Book of psalms CH.78: where it states the earth and the heavens will abide forever
11) in the bible it says that rainbows are gods promise never to flood the earth again however scientifically we know that rainbows are the refraction of light and so they would have existed before noah and his ark.

This is only half of all errors in the bible if you can correct them then i will give more

Now for the truths in the Qur'an.
1) Surah Al Anbiya CH.21:V.30: it states that the heaven and the earth and all things collided and exploded this is the big bang now it is astounding that it took the rest of the world untill just recently to figure this out and yet it was written in the Qur'an 1400 years ago.
2) it was edward hubble who discoverd that the universe is expanding this is mentioned in the Qur'an in Surah Al Darayat CH.51:V.47: "allah has created the expanding universe the vastness of space."
3) the Qur'an described the water cycle in great detail in Surah Al Tariq CH.86:V.11: and in several other places
4) Surah AL miminum CH.23:V.13: all beings are created from liquid which is a scientifically proven fact.
5) the Qur'an describes the earth as being in the shape of an ostrich egg which means that they knew the earth was round and no only that an ostrich egg has its point bent in a bit which is exactly like how the earth is shaped.
6) blessed is he who has placed in the sky constallations, placed there in lamp (sun) and a reflection (moon) which means that they knew that the moon was only reflected light from the sun where as i mentioned in the bibles errors that they thought they both produced their own light.

you must imagine that this was written in the Qur'an 1400 years ago before anyone found out the world was round

i will list more when my oppoent shows a promising argument which i look forward to debateing with any who veiw the opposite also for veiwers if you want to debate then you may leave a comment and i will try to respond.

"science without religon is lame, religon without science is blind"-Albert eienstien
mcc1789

Con

I will not be arguing that the Bible is true; rather that both this and the Quran are scientifically false. I do respect that these are holy books, and understand Wahhabi or Salafi interpretations are hardly the majority. I will be sure to cite all quotations in the Quran or Bible as requested. I'm glad it seems we can agree on scientifically proven evidence only. That said, this should be interesting.

I will concede at the outset to all my opponent's cited errors of logic or fact in the Bible. My contention will simply be that the Quran also has just as many if not more errors of this kind.

1) Surah Al Anbiya 21:30 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water ? Will they not then believe? "Were of one piece, then we parted them" does not appear by any stretch of imagination to do with a "big bang" or explosion in any manner. Rather this seems to indicate the sun, moon and stars were together until separated. Note the similarity to Genesis 1:6-7: And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
(Both the Quran and Bible hold to ancient views of the universe, with a dorm forming over the earth from which the rain fell (the water above) separated from the waters below.

2) Surah Al Dhariyat 51:47: "Allah has created the expanding universe the vastness of space." The translation I have reads: "We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)." This does not appear to refer to an "expanding universe" as we know it http://en.wikipedia.org... but rather saying Allah created the expanse of it, a crucial difference. Also, the next few verses, which my opponent has not mentioned, leave much to be desired:
Surah Al Dhariyat 51:48: "And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!" Going by the same logic Pro uses above, this seems to indicate the Earth is flat (as was commonly believed then) and holds with the dome idea of waters above and below I had mentioned previously.
Surah Al Dhariyat 51:49: "And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect." This is far more blatantly false, as we know that many animals reproduce asexually. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Surah Al Dhariyat 51:50 "Therefore flee unto Allah; lo! I am a plain warner unto you from him." This indicates someone else is writing or dictating the Quran-Prophet Muhammad? There are many more instances of this.

3) Surah Al Tariq 86:11: "By the heaven which giveth the returning rain" ? Is this what Pro refers to? I wouldn't find it surprising that people in any land would know the obvious fact that rain comes from the sky. However I fail to see how this "described the water cycle in great detail" as Pro suggests. Please give us the other examples.
Right before this is a flatly unscientific belief however. Surah Al Tariq 86:5-7: "Let man consider from what he is created. He is created from a gushing fluid that issued from between the loins and the ribs." The author of the Quran does not appear to know that semen is created in the testicles, rather than by some organ higher up. More specifically, human beings are created from fertilized ovum, rather than semen alone (though it was the belief at the time that the entire human was held in the semen, then planted in the womb, hence this verse).

4) Surah Al Muminun 23:12-14: "Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a wet lodging. Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!" Is this what Pro refers to? This appears to be the same unscientific view that human beings are made from clay.

5) Pro has not cited this verse, so I cannot proceed very far. At other points however the Quran indicates the Earth is flat. This appears to be more contradiction than anything else. Pro says at the end of his argument "you must imagine that this was written in the Qur'an 1400 years ago before anyone found out the world was round." This is simply incorrect. The idea of a spherical earth dates back to 6th century BC Greece http://en.wikipedia.org.... In the 3rd century AD "Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the Earth as a physical given." This was centuries before the Quran was written, so the idea was well known and accepted among many.

The scientific errors and contradictions I have cited are just a few of many. The Quran is no more accurate than the Bible in these respects. I refute the resolution: "the Qur'an holds more truth and is more advance(sic) in a sense than the bible."

6) Again no citation. However, consider Surah Nooh 71:16 And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp? "A light therein" appears to mean the moon has its own light, contradicting the other verse my opponent cites and claiming the same thing as the Bible.
Debate Round No. 1
brokenboy

Pro

1) "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
(The Qur'an, 21:30)
The word ratq translated as "sewn to" means "mixed in each, blended" in Arabic dictionaries. It is used to refer to two different substances that make up a whole. The phrase "we unstitched" is the verb fataqa in Arabic and implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of ratq.
2) "And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)
The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur'an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur'an it is revealed that the universe "expands".
3) i didnt want to state this long statement of the Qur'an explaining the water cycle but here it is.
The Qur'an's account of the formation of rain refers exactly to this process. In one verse, this formation is described in this way:
"It is God Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His slaves He wills, they rejoice"
(The Qur'an, 30:48)
Now, let us examine these three stages outlined in the verse more technically.
FIRST STAGE: " It is God Who sends the winds..."
Countless air bubbles formed by the foaming of the oceans continuously burst and cause water particles to be ejected towards the sky. These particles, which are rich in salt, are then carried away by winds and rise upward in the atmosphere. These particles, which are called aerosols, function as water traps, and form cloud drops by collecting around the water vapour themselves, which rises from the seas as tiny droplets.
SECOND STAGE: ".... which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps..."
The clouds are formed from water vapour that condenses around the salt crystals or dust particles in the air. Because the water droplets in these clouds are very small (with a diameter between 0.01 and 0.02 mm), the clouds are suspended in the air, and spread across the sky. Thus, the sky is covered in clouds.
The above illustration shows the water droplets being released into the air. This is the first stage in the formation of rain. After that, the water droplets in the newly formed clouds will be suspended in the air and then condense to form rain. All of these stages are related in the Qur'an.
THIRD STAGE: "…and you see the rain come pouring our from the middle of them"
The water particles that surround salt crystals and dust particles thicken and form raindrops, so, drops that become heavier than the air leave the clouds and start to fall to the ground as rain.
As we have seen, every stage in the formation of rain is related in the verses of the Qur'an. Furthermore, these stages are explained in exactly the right sequence. Just as with many other natural phenomena on the Earth, God gives the most correct explanation of this phenomenon as well, and made it known to people in the Qur'an centuries before it was discovered.In another verse, the following information is given about the formation of rain:
"Have you not seen how God drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight."
(The Qur'an, 24:43)
The formation stages of cumulonimbus, one kind of rain cloud, are these:
1.STAGE, Being driven along: they are driven along, by the wind.
2.STAGE, Joining: Then, small clouds (cumulus clouds) driven along by the wind join together, forming a larger cloud.
Small clouds (cumulus clouds) are carried along and joined together by the wind, that is, as the verse says: "…God drives along the clouds, then joins them together …"
3.STAGE, Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the centre of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc

"By Heaven with its cyclical systems."
(The Qur'an, 86:11)
This word interpreted as "cyclical" in Qur'an translations also has meanings of "sending back" or "returning".
3b) Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an in the course of inviting people to believe. Sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants are shown as evidence to man by God. In many of the verses, people are called upon to turn their attention to their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:
"It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator?"
(The Qur'an, 56:57-59)
The creation of man, and the miraculous aspect of this, is stressed in many other verses. Some items of information within these verses are so detailed that it is impossible for anyone living in the 7th century to have known them. Some of these are as follows:
1. Man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).
2. It is the male that determines the sex of the baby.
3. The human embryo adheres to the mother's uterus like a leech.
4. The embryo develops in three dark regions in the uterus.
4) CON is giving the time when the idea was created not the actual time when it was established and so therefore this argument is moot.
6) this is the entire translation of the passage you gave [Nooh 71:16] ‘And in them, has illuminated the moon, and made the sun a lamp?' this means that the sun is like a lamp which gives off its own light now if the moon were to give off its own light it would have said that allah had created two lamps as supposed to one being illumined.
7) since my opponent has proven number five to be wrong i will now substitute it with another truth in the Qur'an which will be listed below as 5).
"No indeed! If he does not stop, We will grab him by the forelock, a lying, sinful forelock."
(The Qur'an, 96:15-16)
The expression "the lying, sinful forelock" in the above verse is most interesting. Research carried out in recent years revealed that the prefrontal area, which is responsible for the management of particular functions of the brain, lies in the frontal part of the skull. If we look inside the skull at the front of the head, we will find the front area of the cerebrum.The motivation and the foresight to plan and initiate movements occur in the anterior portion of the frontal lobes, the prefrontal area. This is a region of association cortex…The book also says: In relation to its involvement in motivation, the prefrontal area is also thought to be the functional center for aggression… So, this area of the cerebrum is responsible for planning, motivation, and initiating good and sinful behavior, and is responsible for telling lies and the truth. It is clear that the statement "the lying, sinful forelock" corresponds completely to the above explanations.
I would lik 2 thank my opponent for taking the time 2 read thru each verse and provide promising arguments
mcc1789

Con

Thanks for your swift response.

1) Pro has the advantage over me, as I do not speak or know Arabic. Still, I do not see that my critique (that is was a common belief that land arose from the water, etc.) has been refuted.

2) It may be that whoever wrote the Quran happened upon the idea that the universe was expanding steadily. The alternate explanation I ventured still seems viable, but even if wrong this could be mere coincidence. Given the other unscientific verses, it would not seem to prove much except that by coincidence the author was right.

3) "It is God Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His slaves He wills, they rejoice." Qu'ran, 30:48.
Despite Pro's lengthy scientific explanation of it, I do not see that Surah Al Rum contains anything what a normal person would have observed about the rain (that winds stir up storm clouds, which spread in the sky, they are dark, and rain falls out. The author seems to believe that Allah makes it "fall on those of His slaves He wills" i.e. that every rain fall may be specifically planned. This is bad news for those of His believers living in areas with drought.

"Have you not seen how God drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight." (The Qur'an, 24:43)
Again, despite Pro's long explanation of how cumulonimbus clouds form, it does not seem an explanation that a careful observer living in any time could not come up with, absent some kind of divine guidance.

"By Heaven with its cyclical systems." Qu'ran, Surah Al-Tariq, 86:11. My translation reads: "By the heaven which giveth the returning rain", which seems to fit with Pro's. The examples given are in many cases factually wrong, obviously so, while others are less so but still not probative of divine intelligence over human in the Qu'ran's authorship.

Pro does not source the verses in which the creation of human beings is shown. If he will, I would be glad to address them. However, as I cited in Surah Al Tariq 86:5-7, the author seems to think sperm is created in an organ "between the loins and the ribs." Pro does not answer it.

While looking into Surah Al-Rum (The Romans) I found the following at verse 30:20 "And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely!" So, what were human beings created from again?
This leads into:

4) I wrote-Surah Al Muminun 23:12-14: "Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a wet lodging. Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!" Is this what Pro refers to? This appears to be the same unscientific view that human beings are made from clay.

Pro's reply: "CON is giving the time when the idea was created not the actual time when it was established and so therefore this argument is moot." I think he meant it as a response for 5) but he conceded it was wrong on that. If this is a response to 4) it makes no sense.

6) My translation is not very different from yours (Surah Al Noon 71:16): "And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?" Both the translations indicate the sun is like a lamp (obvious). On the moon it's less clear.

7) Pro adds another citation from Surah Al Alaq (The Clot). At the very beginning, 96:1-2 we find "In the name of thy Lord who Createth, Createth man from a clot." What were human beings created from again? On to Pro's verse:
96:15-16 "Nay, but if he cease not, we will seize him by the forelock-the lying, sinful forelock." Honestly, this seems the most out-there of Pro's arguments yet. That this somehow refers to the part of the brain *behind* the forelock instead of the "lying, sinful" *person* who is being *seized* by the forelock seems a huge stretch. The forelock, being "the part of a person's hairstyle which covers the forehead" is simply a convenient place to grab them by. http://en.wiktionary.org...

You're welcome, but I don't see that you've answered the counter-examples yet. I look forward to it.
Debate Round No. 2
brokenboy

Pro

i would like to thank my opponent for debating with me thus far but for any statements where my opponent states that this is a mere coincedence or this is somthing that someone can merely see, he is missing the point of this debate the title says that the Qur'an holds more truth than the bible so if it be a mere coincedence or simply seeing it still holds more truth than that of the bible and so there fore unless my opponent can give suffecient evidence that these are wrong then they will be renderd right even if my opponent belives that no divine intelligence incorrperated.
1) 2) these two arguments are stated above as to why they are not related to the topic to this debate.
3) same as 1)2)
3b) once again stated above how this is in no corallation to this debate, and is in no way wrong regardless of whether or not my opponent belives that this is the work of Allah.
3c) once again same as all other arguments above.
3d) There are some serious problems with this translation and the assumptions made therein.
To begin with, these verses say nothing whatsoever about the creation of sperm or the creation of anything else. Consequently, they do not inform us of where the creation of sperm takes place. They merely say that the substances under discussion come out form the places being described. The word being used is "yakhruj" meaning "to exit, leave, come out, emerge". It in no way implies anything related to creation or origination.
Secondly, the phrase "m��' d��fiq" (emitted fluid) is not restricted in meaning to sperm but is used in Arabic for both the sperm and the egg. Ibn Kath��r, in his commentary on this verse, writes: "It emanates from the man and the woman, and with Allah's permission, the child comes forth as a product of both."
Thirdly, the words translated as "backbone" and "ribs" are not understood in Arabic to belong to the same person. Arabs understand the "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and the "tar��'ib" to a part of the female. Ibn Kath��r states: "It refers to the ?sulb' of the man and the ?tar��'ib' of the woman, which is the area of her chest." He then quotes this interpretation on the authority of the Prophet's companion Ibn `Abb��s. This same understanding is given in all the major classical works of Qur'anic commentary.
Moreover, the word "sulb" should not necessarily be translated as "backbone". This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur'��n. Allah says: "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are.wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (asl��b, the plural of sulb)." [S��rah al-Nis��': 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins.
Likewise, when we look at the word being translated as "ribs" (tar��'ib, the plural of tar��bah) we find that it is used linguistically for the general are of the chest and the abdomen. In al-Q��m��s, the famous classical dictionary of al-Fayr��zab��d�� it is defined as a number of things: "the bones of the chest or what comes after the two collarbones or what comes between the collarbones and the chest or the four ribs to the right of the chest or the four ribs to the left of the chest or the hands, eyes and feet or the collarbones." Some Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and some Successors had also provided many possible meanings, like the lower ribs and al-Dahh��k's statement that it is the area between the breasts and feet and the eyes (a mere indication of centrality).
This word clearly has a very broad and diverse definition. It is so ambiguous a word that the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) could not give it a precise definition. Scholars of Qur'��nic commentary have consistently admitted to there being at least three different possible meanings for this word as it is used in the verse. This is an admission that they do not know for certain what the tar��'ib are, except that they generally agree it refers to an area of the woman's body. It can apply to any region nearing the ribcage. Therefore, the area of the ovaries, the fallopian tubes, or the uterus can easily fit into the general area that is being indicated by these verses.
4) i must refute this point as i do not have an answer i will now replace this one with another point.
new4) While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.
"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)
It is mentioned in another verse, too, that the Sun is not static but moves in a definite orbit:
"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 37:38)
These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age. According to the calculations of experts on astronomy, the Sun is traveling at the enormous speed of 720,000 kilometers an hour in the direction of the star Vega in a particular orbit called the Solar Apex. This means that the sun travels roughly 17,280,000 kilometers a day. Along with the Sun, and all planets and satellites within the gravitational system of the Sun also travel the same distance. In addition, all the stars in the universe are in a similar planned motion.
That the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:
"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)
There are about 200 billion galaxies in the universe, consisting of nearly 200 billion stars in each. Most of these stars have planets, and most of those planets have satellites. All of these heavenly bodies move in very precisely computed orbits. For millions of years, each has been "swimming" along in its own orbit in perfect harmony and order with all the others. Moreover, many comets also move along in the orbits determined for them.
The orbits in the universe do not only belong to celestial bodies. The galaxies also travel at enormous speeds in computed, planned orbits. During these movements, none of these celestial bodies cuts across another's path, or collides with another.
Surely at the time the Qur'an was revealed, mankind did not possess today's telescopes or advanced observation technologies to observe millions of kilometres of space, nor the modern knowledge of physics or astronomy. Therefore, at that time, it was not possible to determine scientifically that space is "full of paths and orbits" as stated in the verse. However, this was openly declared to us in the Qur'an that was revealed at that time:-because the Qur'an is the word of God.
Like many other comets in the universe, Halley's comet, seen above, also moves in a planned orbit. It has a specific orbit and it moves in this orbit in a perfect harmony with other celestial bodies.
All celestial bodies including planets, satellites of these planets, stars, and even galaxies have their own orbits that have been determined with very delicate computations.
6) as I stated in num six of my previous argument that if he wanted to establish that they both have their own light then he would have stated that.
7) "Has created man from a clot" (a piece of thick coagulated blood).
In the first phase of its development, the baby in the mother's womb is in the form of a zygote, which clings to the uterus in order to take nourishment from the mother's blood. In the picture above is a zygote, which looks like a piece of flesh. This formation, which has been discovered by modern embryology, was miraculously stated in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago with the word "alaq", which means "a thing that clings to some place" and is used to describe leeches that cling to a body to suck blood.
RIGHT now i belive the score is 11-2 beacuse i hav proved 11 things wrong with the bible in debate one. And u have only proved 2
mcc1789

Con

You're welcome, this has been an interesting debate. I have not stated anything is "a mere coincidence or this is something that someone can merely see." I do not understand Pro's reason for saying it does not detract from his point.
As for the debate, I stated at the beginning:
"I will not be arguing that the Bible is true; rather that both this and the Quran are scientifically false." The resolution of this debate is: "The Qu'ran holds more truth and is more advance (sic) in a sense than the Bible." Therefore I do not have to prove that the Bible is true, merely the Qu'ran does not hold *more* truth. I am not defending the Bible. In order to negate the resolution I only to offer evidence the Qu'ran also is scientifically wrong and contradictory, the same as the Bible.
1), 2), 3), 3)b, 3)c): If these arguments were not useful, I have to wonder why Pro even offered them. Pro can't simply turn around and say "oh by the way it doesn't matter" if I critique them.

3)d: Surah Al Tariq 86:5-7: "So let man consider from what he is created. He is created from a gushing fluid That issued from between the loins and ribs." Perhaps Pro'd like to inform me of what this means, if not semen. Is there some "gushing fluid" that helps create human beings aside from this.

As I stated before, not knowing Arabic I cannot follow the subtleties of the original writing. If Pro wanted an opponent who could, an Arabic speaker should be specified. I cannot compete with Pro's knowledge in this area of the debate. I can only go by the English translations, which Pro says are wrong. If we go by what Pro has said, the translator seems to have settled on this translation, given the ambiguity and vagueness Pro's stated to exist in the Arabic verse. I do wish to note, however, that in all of Pro's discourse on the Arabic, nowhere does he mention whether it says "gushing fluid" or something of that kind in the original.

4) The fact that both Sun and Moon had orbits has been known since before the Qu'ran or Islam were ever heard of. However, it was felt the Sun orbited the Earth instead of vice versa, as we now know to be true. Nowhere in this verse do we see an indication the author knows the Sun moves around the Earth. It was also known the other planets moved around, though as before with the Earth placed in the center rather than the Sun. If the Qu'ran revealed this error, or the fact there are (nine?) planets, that would be more compelling.

6) Well I've made my argument on that one, might as well let it rest.

7) The zygote is *not* a clot of blood. Taking nourishment from blood is not the same as *being* it, obviously. I do not see a picture of the zygote linked. Please do link the verse where the zygote is said to be clinging.

Let's leave the score for voters, shall we? I have never contested errors in the Bible; as I stated, my proving your Qu'ran is equally full of errors would be enough. Furthermore, you have not responded to most of the counter-examples I made from the Qu'ran, so let's not keep score until then. Allow me to refresh them and add more.

Scientific errors (new listed first):

Surah An-Nisa 4:1 Humans created from a single man.

Surah Al-Mai'da 5:27-31 Cain and Abel story repeated (although they aren't named).

Surah Joseph 12:4 Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets.

Surah 6:100-101-No, 35:1-Yes (on the question) Can Allah do anything?

Surah 3:85, 5:72-Yes, 2:62, 5:89-No (on the question) Will all Christians go to hell?

Surah 4:3-Yes, 4:129-No (on the question) Can a man deal fairly with his wives?

Surah 39:4-Yes, 6:100-1-No (on the question) Could Allah have a son?

(Refreshed)

Surah Al Dhariyat 51:49: "And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect." This is far more blatantly false, as we know that many animals reproduce asexually. http://en.wikipedia.org......

Surah Al Dhariyat 51:50 "Therefore flee unto Allah; lo! I am a plain warner unto you from him." This indicates someone else is writing or dictating the Quran-Prophet Muhammad? There are many more instances of this.

This should do, since Pro conceded 2 arguments that I made I've only put up 9 (but there are way more where that came from).
Debate Round No. 3
brokenboy

Pro

i am sorry for not making this clear which i will do now
2) CON: "Given the other unscientific verses, it would not seem to prove much except that by coincidence the author was right."
i was trying to tell you that even if it was by mere coincedence it is still right so therefore you are accepting this as true.

3) CON: "I do not see that Surah Al Rum contains anything what a normal person would have observed about the rain (that winds stir up storm clouds, which spread in the sky, they are dark, and rain falls out."

once again that does not make it wrong and since it has been proven, thus num 3) will be regarded as true just like 2)

3d) Please read through my debate arguments more carefully.

the phrase "m�ƒ��' d�ƒ��fiq" (emitted fluid) is not restricted in meaning to sperm but is used in Arabic for both the sperm and the egg. Ibn Kath�ƒ��r, in his commentary on this verse, writes: "It emanates from the man and the woman, and with Allah's permission, the child comes forth as a product of both."
Thirdly, the words translated as "backbone" and "ribs" are not understood in Arabic to belong to the same person. Arabs understand the "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and the "tar�ƒ��'ib" to a part of the female. Ibn Kath�ƒ��r states: "It refers to the ?sulb' of the man and the ?tar�ƒ��'ib' of the woman, which is the area of her chest." He then quotes this interpretation on the authority of the Prophet's companion Ibn `Abb�ƒ��s. This same understanding is given in all the major classical works of Qur'anic commentary.
Moreover, the word "sulb" should not necessarily be translated as "backbone". This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur'�ƒ��n. Allah says: "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are.wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (asl�ƒ��b, the plural of sulb)." [S�ƒ��rah al-Nis�ƒ��': 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins.

4) Planets are generally divided into two main types: large, low-density gas giants, and smaller, rocky terrestrials. Under IAU definitions, there are eight planets in the Solar System. In order of increasing distance from the Sun, they are the four terrestrials, Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars, then the four gas giants, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. Six of the planets are orbited by one or more natural satellites. Additionally, the Solar System also contains three dwarf planets.

6) stalemate.

7) When the sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly start to reproduce by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh" called an embryo. This of course can only be seen by human beings with the aid of a microscope.

as stated in my last argument.

new1) This is another verse which is brought up by the followers of Darwinism and they proclaim that this verse point to the creation of everything out of a single being as Darwinism claims. This is a false allegation on the Holy Quran.
con2) please send a link im having troubles finding that verse.
con3) as stated in our planet/orbit debate.
con4) Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
This does not state that god can or can't do anything so therefore this is lacking evidence please send link.

con5) this in no way states that they will go to hell it simply states that they will "miss out" on the glory of god.
con6) please send a link beacuse i have trouble finding that verse.
con7) Surah 39:4: "Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible."
As stated here this verse is saying that he is above such things meaning that he would never have one, thus this is not a contradiction to the other verse.

Surah Al Dhariyat 51:49: "And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect."

CON is simplifying the verses way to much it only says pairs not pairs of animals.

Everything in the world has been created on the principle of the pairs. The whole system of the Universe is functioning on the principle that certain things arc complementary and matching to certain others, and their combination brings into being countless new forms
-all things are made of atoms, and that everything that living organism comes from the sum of energy contributions between *pairs* of atoms.

This in no way states that you should run away from Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but since it is unclear as to what he is saying run away from thus it should be dropped it could mean the devil it could mean Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) although it is highly unlikely beacuse if he was trash talking Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would just not let it be in the Qur'an.

i look forward to hearing more of my opponents contradictions.

also if my oppoent would allow it i would like to leave one last argument in the comments beacuse I am afraid that CON will just spring a whole bunch of verses at the end which i will not be able to counter as this is my last argument if not i look forward to debating you in the future i would give you a muslim blessing but as i know you do not belive in Allah i will simply say good luck.
mcc1789

Con

Well, now we come to the end. This has certainly been interesting.

"i (sic) was trying to tell you that even if it was by mere coincidence it is still right so therefore you are accepting this as true."

I am doing nothing of the kind, which I'll explain below more fully.

3) As to your coincidence argument, I thought that the entire point was to prove the Qu'ran has information which could not have been gained by observation and common knowledge, hence more truthful than the Bible. If the data could be observed or deduced by anyone, like I said before, it does not need divine intelligence, so proving nothing.

3d) Believe me I read through your arguments very carefully. If the term refers to the ovum too, then it proves the point, as this would be an error of fact. The ovum is not emitted in fluid except by menstruation, which by definition would be the opposite from creating life. Since you tell me the word "sulb" refers to two different pieces of anatomy depending on the gender, and has many possible meanings, I can only say that seems needlessly complicated. One would imagine that an omniscient being is capable of more clarity, such as saying "human beings are created by a gushing fluid emitted from the loins (not between them and the ribs, or any other ambiguity) which then develops inside the womb." See? Much more clearer.

Even if I grant this to you, there is still no explanation for the "man came from dust" verse.

4) I'm aware of how many planets exist, thanks. By your count we still have only eight (Pluto no longer being counted). So where are these missing three planets?

6) Fine by me.

7) My friend, the verse said "blood." That is obviously not flesh. It's simple really.

new1) The "followers of Darwinism"? Charles Darwin was not a prophet-he was wrong on some things, and in others he simply couldn't know of all the advances science would bring. The idea of "Darwinism" in this sense is erroneous. Just an issue that I thought needed clarifying. Pro has it backward. We evolved from a woman and man, not one single man. Otherwise this would not be listed as an error. http://en.wikipedia.org... http://en.wikipedia.org...

Con2) Madinan Surah, chapter 5, verses 27-31.

Con3) Yes-just noticed it was made twice, my bad. Same arguments hold.

Con4) Makkan Surah, chapter 35, verse 1: "Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is able to do all things." vs.
Madinan Surah, chapter 6, verses 100-101: "Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?"

Con5) Madinan Surah, chapter 3, verse 85: "Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter" and Madinan Surah, chapter 5, verse 72: "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers." vs.
Madinan Surah, chapter 2, verse 62: "Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve" and Madinan Surah chapter 5, verse 69: "Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve."

Con6) Madinan Surah, chapter 4, verse 3: "Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess." vs.
Madinan Surah, chapter 4, verse 129 (in the same chapter no less): "Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so)."

Con7) Makkan Surah, chapter 39, verse 4: "If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created." vs.
Madinan Surah, chapter 6, verses 100-101: "Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?"

If all things are of pairs, surely animals fall under that, according to the Qu'ran? We know this is not so however.

Pro is missing my point in this. It indicates that someone else is writing, besides Allah, which is why I linked it. Allah is supposed to have dictated the Qu'ran no, so this would be a fault with that.

I will not be adding any more contradictions or other arguments-that would hardly be fair, therefore you will have no need of an argument in the comments. I realize that instigating means giving up the last word which we all like to have so certainly I'm not going to take advantage of that. I'd hope this has demonstrated to voters that the Qu'ran does not hold more truth than the Bible. Thus I urge you to vote Con.

I am not Muslim, but I'm happy to accept any blessing from you in the spirit it's given. This has been fun :)
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by brokenboy 6 years ago
brokenboy
im not able to vote beacuse i dont have a cell mine broke plus i dont like voteing for myself
Posted by mcc1789 6 years ago
mcc1789
@Mirza: If you read the debate, I went into this at some length. Yes, I understand the difference between sperm and other fluid, the Arabic language issues, etc. Honestly, since I've just debated this I'm not looking for another just now. Thanks for your offer though, I'll keep it in mind.
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
Brokenboy balance out mcc's vote, no one voted for him
Posted by Mirza 6 years ago
Mirza
"However, as I cited in Surah Al Tariq 86:5-7, the author seems to think sperm is created in an organ "between the loins and the ribs." Pro does not answer it."

That is a very good example of not understanding Arabic and the difference between sperm and other fluid. That is fine, bring it up next time, thank you.
Posted by Mirza 6 years ago
Mirza
I am ready to take up exactly this debate with you, mcc. Send me a PM if you are up for it. We will discuss any so-called "scientific errors."
Posted by mcc1789 6 years ago
mcc1789
Oh? I didn't know that, how do you change the settings?
Posted by Puck 6 years ago
Puck
mcc1789, I was going to send you some links to clarify Pros position for you, but you aren't accepting messages or comments.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
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brokenboy
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