The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
silvertechfilms
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

the catholic church has never contradicted itself, from an official capacity

Do you like this debate?NoYes-3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
silvertechfilms
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/17/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 792 times Debate No: 34840
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

in this debate, i am not counting the issues of limbo, or "no salvation outside the catholic church".

you would think if the catholic church were not true, that it would have contradicted itself at some point in two thousand years.

the only things that count are statements that are authoritative, things that could be considerted "infallible". the pope, intentionally, teaches, the church, on faith and morals. that is the criteria. it includes many councils and other statements by popes.

note:

-this does not include moral corruption, only official teaching. that means you can't use bad priest, even peodofile priests. it means you can't use the inquisistion where millions were killed by catholics. can't use the sins of past popes. it has to be actual teachings of the church, as said, councils and statements by popes. etc. impeccable v infallble, there's a difference.
-since we are comparing official statements, id rather not use the bible either. it's usually too open to interpretation to begin with. we are examining the church's consistency on its own anyway... and you'd think even beyond the bible, it'd have contradicted itself within two thousand years.
-also there's a differnce between widespread belief and doctrine. that so many believed the earth was made in six days, that the earth was flat, that man wasn't from apes etc... only shows they are human. it'd make sense at first impression. this isn't doctrine. you have to cite a quote or citation.
-there's a difference between practice and doctrine too... preistly celibacy is practice, reading the mass in latin is a practice... etc

also try not to be vague. so many claims of contradiction online are superficial. for example, "papal bull regarding jews", without getting into what exactly is contradicting what etc. if possible, find the quote or citation for what you are referring to.

also I have debated this topic many times in the past, if you would like you may review my profile to see all the points brought up by past debaters etc
silvertechfilms

Con

-A Christian Bishop should have a real family " 1 Tim. 3:2-5
-"Father" should never be used as a title for clergy " Matt. 23:9
-The word "pope" comes from "paps" (for "papa") meaning "a nursing father" (Num. 11:12)
-Pope denies the teachings of the Apostle Peter (Acts 15:11; 1 Peter. 2:5)
-Peter would not let a man bow down to him - Acts 10:25-26
-Not once at any time has any pope publicly given anyone the material on New Testament salvation found in Romans ch. 4-5; Galatians ch. 3-4; Ephesians ch. 2, 5; Colossians 2; 1 Thessalonians 4; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 5; Jude; 1 Peter 2; 2 Peter 2; or Revelation ch. 9-22.
-Popes demonstrate constant disobedience to the NT orders given to all Christian ministers in 2 Timothy ch. 3-4; Titus ch. 1-2; 1 Timothy ch. 1-2; 1 Corinthians 9; and 2 Corinthians 10-12.
-Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), Peter was the apostle to the Jews (Galatians 2:8). If Catholics were to recognize one apostle as their founder, biblically, it should be Paul whose ministry was directed to Gentiles, who wrote the epistle to the ROMANS, and who was actually in Rome.
-Neither Jesus nor Paul had a permanent dwelling place. The Vatican Billions (Avro Manhattan, 1983) documents over $4,000,000,000 in income per year for the Roman Catholic Church.
-Pope Pius XI prayed for world peace for 20 years before he made a concordant with Hitler
-WWI & WWII were both started by Catholic Austrians (Franz Joseph and Adolph Hitler) who were in full political union with the Catholic Church
-Benito Mussolini and Hitler were both confirmed Roman Catholics. Neither excommunicated before or after the Holocaust.
-Others who remained in good standing with the Catholic Church were Joseph Goebbles, Hermann Goering, Heydrich the "Hangman," Theodor Eike (SS, Dachau), Rudolph Hoess (Auschwitz), Joseph Kramer (Belsen-Belsen), Fanz Stangl (Treblinka), Heinrich Himmler (Gestapo), and Commadant Koch (Buchenwald). These genocidal professional murderers should have been dealt with (1 Tim. 1:2-; 5:20).
-Catholicism is pagan idolatry where the 2nd commandment has been removed from the list of 10 commandments " Ex. 20:4 " in their printed version of the commandments - they split the 10th commandment into 2 to make up the difference. This is "corrupting the word of God" (2 Cor. 2:17) and "handling the word of God deceitfully" (2 Cor. 4:2)
-Catholics have been murdering Bible-believing Christians for over 15 centuries (Lollards, Cathari, Albigenses, Waldenses, Lutherans, Euchites, Donatists, Hussites, Nestorians, Protestants, Arians, etc")
-The pope is the "idol shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17
-Until recently, Catholicism forbade the Bible to get into the hands of the people which directly disobeys the Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 2:2.
-There are no competent catholic scholars whose works can compete with the works of Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Adam Clarke, C. I. Schofield, Clarence Larkin, Arthur W. Pink, Edward Hills, Dean Burgon, Prebendary Scrivener, Donald Waite, Cornelius STam, Arno Gaebelein, Dwight Pentecost, Erich Sauer, Ethelbert Bullinger, or Laurence Vance.
-Simon Peter was Married - 1 Cor. 9:5; Matt. 8:14
-Peter had to be taught sound doctrine by Paul " Galatians 2
-The "Queen of Heaven" is not Mary, rather it is a pre-Mary pagan deity (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-19, 25)
-"Vestries" and "Vestments" are not catholic terms, but are ancient pagan terms used to describe the place where orgies and blasphemies would take place in honor of Baal " 2 Kings 10:22 - and Ashtoreth (Judges 2:13)
-Alexander Hislop (The Two Babylons) proved back in 1916 that the whole Catholic set up from Madonnas to "confessionals" and cardinals (and from popes and crosses to beads and candles) was of heathen origin, stemming from the worship of Nimrod, Tammuz, and Semiramis (Astarte, Ishtar, et al.). Egyptians and Babylonians had "trinities," but one member of their "trinity" was a FEMALE.
-Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior " Luke 1:47
-Mary was an unclean sinner who needed purification " Luke 2:22 (cf. Lev. 12:1-7)
-Mary gave birth to at least SIX children after the birth of Christ who are all listed by name in Mark 6:3. None of them were Christ"s "cousins" as Catholics alibi. Ps. 69:8 says they were His "mother"s children."
-Jesus corrects and rebukes mariolotry in Luke 11:27-28 the same way a modern Baptist would
-Jesus never refers to Mary as "mother" one time in the Scriptures. He either calls her "woman" (John 2:4; 19:26) or nothing at all.
-No "early Christians" (Peter, James, John, Matthew, Thomas, Bartholomew, Paul, Silas, Barnabas et al.) ever gave Mary the time of day or consulted her for anything.
-The last time Mary is mentioned in scriptures, she is in a prayer meeting (Acts 1:14) with 120 disciples. None of them honor her, none of them reverence her, none of them pray to her, and none of them celebrate the birthday of her Son; nor do they "hail Mary" long enough for her to hail back.
-Mary being called "the mother of God" came about by "Leo the Great" blending Catholic tradition and pagan religion around the time of the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451)
-No Bible Christian (Peter, James, Paul, etc") ever recognized Mary as God"s mother.
-".... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." (catechism 969, from: http://www.vatican.va...; " this is sheer blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ " 1 John 2:2. 1 Tim. 2:5
-If this isn"t Mary worship, I don"t know what is: "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." From catechism 966
-"before they came together" in Matt. 1:18 and "knew her not till she brought forth her first born son" in Matt. 1:25 are clear indications that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage after the birth of Jesus.
-In order for Mary to retain her virginity while married, she would have to do so against 1 Cor. 7:4-5 which would mean that she disobeyed both God and Joseph.
-Every Christian is a priest " 1 Pet. 2:5, 9 " and every Christian has a High Priest " Hebrews 3:1 " and no catholic clergy member fits anywhere in the picture
-Jesus never fooled with salt, holy water, rosary beads, prayers for the dead, novenas, or parishes a day in his life. Neither did any of the apostles.
-It was Rome who killed babies (Matt. 2), murdered James (Acts 12), imprisoned Peter (Acts 12), cut off Paul"s head (2 Tim. 4), persecuted the Jews (Acts18:2), whipped and nailed Jesus to the cross (John 18-19), and then Lied about his resurrection (Matt. 28:12-15) " what would make anyone think that Rome was the place to go for God-honoring biblical truth?
-The Roman priest class supposedly succeeds the Levitical priest class when 1) no such instruction is given in the New Testament, and 2) such a thing is specifically Negated in Hebrews 7 with Christ being the High priest forever after the order of Melchisidec, not Levi or Rome.
-The drinking of blood is forbidden before the law (Gen 9:4), during the law (Leviticus 17:10-11), and after the law (Acts 15:29). There is no indication that Christ would institute the drinking of any liquid that supposedly turned into literal blood " everything in the Bible goes against that notion. David even sets the example by saying the he will not offer drink offerings of blood " Ps. 16:4
-Jesus Christ specifically said that His literal flesh and blood (if taken orally) would profit them nothing " John 6:54-55, 63. "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink" " Romans 14:17

-Source-
http://answers.yahoo.com...
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

some administrative points regarding your post. one is that i asked for you not to use what you perceive to be biblical contradictions, cause it's too open to interpretation usually. the other is that you are too vague and listy, like how i said don't say things like "papal bull regarding the jews" without being at all specific. the other is you have way too many points to tackle... if they are so strong, pick the top three and i will address them.
i see no necessary contradictions as is.
silvertechfilms

Con

Listy" is not a word.

If bible is too open to interpretation, then it cannot be that divine.

To a catholic anything the church says is considered divine no matter what. Even if they do contradict themselves.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

interpretation does mean it's not inspired. this really isnt even much of anything worth of an argument on your part.

what does catholics believing have to do with anything.

you couldnt do as requested and list the top three suppsoed contradictions. i assume it's cause you are not knowledgeable about them, and that the points are without merit.

youve yet to show a contradiction. your burden has not been fulfilled.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 3 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
too bad i cant get someone to stick with the issues presented, or properly respond to the arguments.

i think it's telling.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 3 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
there was no contradiction regarding atheists and salvation. only clarification.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Posted by Harbinger 3 years ago
Harbinger
Dairygirl, all one must do is post the recent comment from the Pope that atheist can go to heaven and then the next a RCC speaker recanted that statement. This is the Pope teaching and his own people correcting him. If this is not a contradiction from an official capacity then contradiction do not exist.
Posted by drafterman 3 years ago
drafterman
Except, no, it has to be a "definitive" teaching. All this debate is going to be about is whether or not something is part of infallible teaching, not whether or not they contain any contradictions.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 3 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
that's a common misconception.
any time the pope teaches the church, it's considered an infallible teaching.

here is a famous catholic apologist addressing a similar argument.
http://jimmyakin.com...

im sure you cannot find anything authortitative that backs up what you say.
(if necessary, i can just quote the catholic encyclopeida's article on infalliblity that basically says the pope's teachings are infallible.
Posted by drafterman 3 years ago
drafterman
There are only 7 things that are truly considered to be infallible. This is a non-debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Mrparkers 3 years ago
Mrparkers
dairygirl4u2csilvertechfilmsTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Saying "I see no contradictions" is not an argument. Here's a non-biblical contradiction the catholic church has done: The Great Schism. Look that up, Pro.
Vote Placed by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
dairygirl4u2csilvertechfilmsTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con gave any points and argument that Pro could not refute.