The Instigator
Josh-on-life
Pro (for)
Losing
42 Points
The Contender
InquireTruth
Con (against)
Winning
77 Points

the catholic church is the single most corrupt and indoctrinating organisation since time began

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 18 votes the winner is...
InquireTruth
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/17/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,549 times Debate No: 8317
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (18)

 

Josh-on-life

Pro

Few who are members of the Catholic faith truly realise its shocking history, in this debate I hope to drag up some hardcore reality check material to throw in the face of all those self delusional bigots who dare to assume they, above others, are favored by "a higher being".
Be under no illusion I despise religion and all its implications, blind faith is the single most potent formula for the total downfall of all society. If anyone wants to disagree with me then join and we can talk it out, but I believe any argument you give me will pale to insignificance in the face of the most simple, factual and beautiful thing in the universe.........Truth
InquireTruth

Con

============
Introduction
============

My opponent has an incredibly large burden – he need not only show that the Catholic church is by and large a corrupt institution, but that it is, among the copious list of crazy and corrupt cults and organizations, the single most corrupt AND indoctrinating. This burden is actually impossible to prove, in that he has no means to quantify.

Nevertheless, I will offer to my opponent a list and quick explanation of some organizations that I think would do him well to consider:

============
Institutions/organizations to consider:
============

Islam:
Is the most indoctrinating seen in terms of size? If this were the case, then it is actually the Muslims who are more indoctrinating than the Catholics – with a whopping 21.01% to the Catholics 16.99% (1).

Do wars and death play into the mixture? It should be understood that out of the 1,763 wars chronicled in the encyclopedia, only 123 of them could in some way be tied to religion. That is only 6.98% of all the wars recorded. However, 66 of the 123 wars were waged by Islamic-regimes. In light of such evidence – it is obvious that Catholicism cannot be seen as the most corrupt in terms of wars when Islam has instigated more than half of all the wars that can reasonably be tied to religion (2).

Atheistic Communism:
If war, death, and political anti-religious indoctrination are of any factor, then certainly atheistic communism needs to be considered. Between 1917 and 2007 approximately 148 million were killed by 52 atheist leaders, that is three times more than all the human beings killed by war (The Irrational Atheist 240). Moreover, Atheist leaders forced their countrymen to publicly proclaim atheism and there are many accounts where persons were killed because they would not recant their faith. These atheist leaders specifically sought to eliminate religion because of their forms of atheistic communism (3).

Scientology:
Do secrecy and science-fiction roots play into the mixture? Certainly scientology is laden with outrageous claims and a veil of suspicious secrecy.

North Korea:
Now if censorship, anti-religious indoctrination, suppression and oppression, secrecy, false imprisonment and persecution are to be considered hallmarks of corruption and indoctrination, then certainly North Korea should be at the top of the list. North Korea's past is not only laden with corruption and indoctrination, but its current state is still hopelessly morose – the same cannot be said of the Catholic Church.

============
My Analysis of the Catholic Church:
============

The Catholic Church definitely has some rather dark moments in history. But it is not only ingenuous to hold only the bad against the Church, but wholly incorrect to think that Church's past state is rightly indicative of its present state. You will notice that my opponent says that the Catholic Church "IS" the most corrupt and indoctrinating institution – yet in his opening statement he mentions the Church's history. This is inconsistent with my opponent's use of the 3rd person, present indicative "is," which means that the Catholic church must be shown as presently the most corrupt and indoctrinating.

Admittedly, in 15th century and early 16th century, before the protestant reformation, the Catholic church was in need of some serious changes – but the catholic laity was more aware of this than any other group. There was corrupt leadership; monasteries became houses of leisure and fashionable soirees. The catholic prelates were exploiting the poor, and the so-called apostolic succession was merely a chain of those who could buy the papacy and other Catholic offices.

But there were many internal forces calling for change and reformation within the church, among them was Erasmus of Rotterdam, a distinguished humanist. It should be noted that Martin Luther himself was a catholic, looking first to reform the church internally (4).

However, not long after the protestant reformation, the Catholics did surmount the internal tyranny of corruption and trust was given back to the papacy.

No doubt my opponent will wish to bring up the inquisition and the crusades – but these actions – though very wrong – pale in comparison to the actions of other very corrupt institutions that have no corresponding acts of goodness. Moreover, my opponent must show that the Catholic Church is currently the single most corrupt and indoctrinating institution, not that it WAS or HAS in the past been.

Also, the Catholic Church should not be seen absent of its good deeds. You will find there are no Skeptics' or rationalists' hospitals, charities, or aged-care homes, no evolutionists' orphanages, welfare agencies, or relief agencies, or any other life-improving institutions such as those founded and funded by Christians who have followed Jesus' teachings.

Sources:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. Vox Day, The Irrational Atheist
3. http://en.wikipedia.org...
4. Justo L. Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Volume 2
Debate Round No. 1
Josh-on-life

Pro

First off I resent being referred to as "my opponent" I'm am Josh not a reference word. and second off id like to point out that "Inquire truth" has focused more on diversion argument and pointing the finger at every other "bad religion" other than its self. Although he has naively and predictable suggested that I will bring up the crusades he is mistaken. I don't have enough knowledge on the crusades to use it in my argument but I do know the underlying evils associated with them. I would prefer to revert even further back in history to times around the founding of the Church. I would ask you to refer to Constantine and his buddy's and their actions after being converted to the church.

In our world today men and women are still not equal. Though they are more equal now than they have been for many years. This was not always the case, when the Pagan religions were the main religions women and men were seen as equal. Now before your Catholic upbringing makes you think "Pagan devil worship!" and so forth let me tell you some truth that your faith as corroded over the years. The Pagans, in my opinion for what its worth, had it right. Or if not 100% right they at least had their principles infinitely better than the church of today. They were nature lovers and treated women with as much as if not more respect and reverence as the men. It was only when the church gained influence that this changed. How odd....

Constantine set in motion a machine of pure vindictive evil and created a new scape goat for society, the witch. According to the church the witch was every were, priestesses, female botanists, female politicians and even midwives simply because they knew than some herbs relived pain during child birth. In total over 5 million ( F****** million!!) women were burned an the stake during this period, and the scars of this indoctrination of society are still visible today. The church by despicable means turned the scales of society in the favour of men, the sexists bastards.

I care not what other religions you may bring up to try and shoot down my argument, what other evil deeds others have done that over shadow those of the Church. And don't make me comment on the Church of today for the love of life.
Let me just leave you with one of the new Popes messages to his "Flock". It seems his most divine on earth, his most wise and awe inspiring thinks that sending condoms to Africa will make the aids pandemic WORSE. Well hats off to him it seems that even the seemingly most powerful can make the most idiotic statements and still be adored by all.

Oh and just another point Inquire truth stated in his argument "There was corrupt leadership; monasteries became houses of leisure and fashionable soirees. The catholic prelates were exploiting the poor" sorry have you looked at the Vatican lately have you seen the popes residence there? I find it offensive that you would over look these crimes of greed in defence of today's church. And just a note on the faith as a whole, an atheist quote here "Why would an all knowing all powerful God create imperfect beings and then blame and punish them for his own mistakes?" to which I would expect you to answer, rather pathetically "God works in mysterious ways...". Get a clue please.
InquireTruth

Con

==================
Introduction:
==================

My opponent (I'm sorry if this offends, it is not a pejorative term), has not come close to meeting his burden. But I will not let his rhetoric go without comment. As another note, I am not Catholic myself as my opponent seems to assume.

==================
Am I pointing the Finger?
==================

Josh states that I am focusing on the "diversion" argument, merely pointing fingers and not taking any responsibility. It will do him well to recall that his burden is to prove that the Catholic Church is the single most indoctrinating institution, so where is the folly in (1) asking for the criteria by which he assesses such a claim and (2) asking how, based on this criteria, the aforesaid institutions are not more corrupt and indoctrinating (at least presently).

I am not pointing fingers, I am merely showing that the Catholic Church is NOT, in light of other institutions, the single most corrupt and indoctrinating. As should be abundantly clear, I have no qualms with identifying and responding to the missteps of the Catholic Church - given my analysis of it.

==================
Women and Paganism
==================

The Da Vinci Code? Is this what the debate is stemming from? My opponent seems to be regurgitating ill-informed nonsense from the myth-ridden book and motion picture, "The Da Vinci Code."

My opponent claims that the Catholic Church, because it had some vehement dislike for egalitarianism, went about and killed 5 million women! This is historically incorrect. It is true, unfortunately, that many people were killed, non-Christian historians now agree that it was somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 women AND men that were killed during the time of 1450 and 1750 (quite a distance from the alleged 5 million) (1). Moreover, many of these trials took place in local and often secular courts! Furthermore, these witch hunts happened long after Constantine had legalized the practice of Christianity – which was not a popular thing to do given that Emperor Diocletian before him was persecuting and killing Christians. Before that, even, Emperor Nero would use Christians as candles to light the way to his domicile – he would also wrap them in animal skin and feed them to dogs (2).

The subjugation of women was around long before Catholicism and Constantine. The thoughts of the Greek philosopher, Aristotle, no affiliate to Judaism, unfortunately influenced some early catholic teachings. Aristotle saw women as imperfect men (3).

My opponent's side comment about condoms is ridiculous. Which is worse, the push for free and unfettered sex WITH condoms, or the Church's advocacy of chastity until marriage? Is it of no surprise that it was only after the invention of condoms and the sexual revolution that AIDS surfaced?

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The Pope is Greedy
==================

My opponent is now making a claim that is at least relevant to the topic at hand, as he is attempting to show that the Church is CURRENTLY corrupt and indoctrinating. The problem is that he does not assess the absolutely positive giving of the Church. If he thinks the fancy hat and the large adorned monasteries are too much (and I totally agree), he as to ask if this outweighs the earnest giving and relief efforts of the Church.

The CRS (Catholic Relief Service), helps in over a hundred countries, Rwanda relief effort, Turkey Earthquake, South Asia Tsunami, Darfur, Pakistan Earthquake, Hurricane Mitch, Kosovo, floods in the Philippines, Floods in Pakistan, Middle East and etcetera. They are leaders in pioneering health efforts and, contrary to my opponent's assumption, leaders in HIV and AIDS relief. But even further, they help with peace building, education, and equipping people to sustain themselves via agriculture and micro-financing (4).

==================
Conclusion
==================

My arguments were not addressed and my opponent's burden was not fulfilled. All of my opponent's arguments have been shown wanting.

Sources:
1. http://www.jesusanddavinci.com...
2. http://encyclopedia.farlex.com...
3. http://www.associatedcontent.com...
4. http://crs.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Josh-on-life

Pro

Josh-on-life forfeited this round.
InquireTruth

Con

Thank you for the debate! I would at this time like to extend my prior arguments.

Thanks,
InquireTruth
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Volkov 7 years ago
Volkov
B & A: Tied
Conduct: CON; due to PRO's forfeits
S & G: CON; CON had better grammar than PRO - note the resolution.
Argument: CON; provided the clearest and most concise argument, to which I agree with.
Sources: CON; CON used more verifiable sources than PRO.
Posted by thethickgreyline 7 years ago
thethickgreyline
I dont think he ever expected to win this. I believe Josh's aim was to atack the catholic church and show how corrupt it has been and is now. InquireTruth loves these debates because he knows his opponent has set themself up to lose and as a Catholic he also loves the chance to humiliate bigots who outrightly atack his beliefs without the evidence to back up their claim. Therfore I refuse to vote on this debate.
Posted by purplehaze 7 years ago
purplehaze
I have some evidence for you. Now I dont know of any other religion ever being responsible for anything as sick as this, but I dont know everything so any corrections are welcome.

In my opinion the deaths caused by Islam pales in comparison to the christian brothers paedophile scandal in Ireland. Read about it for yere selves because it would disgust me to have to go into detail about it.

I do believe InquireTruth was at some stage of his arguement looking for you to explain why Christianity "IS" whatever Josh claimed it is, and id just like to point out that the investigation of these twisted paedophiles is only going on as we speak.

Have a look at it. It is most definitely the most sick and twisted thing I have ever heard of happening. Even the concentration camps sounded like paradise in comparison to these places. Christianity might not be the most corrupt going by numbers, but they are definitely the most twisted group of people on this earth at the moment, and the f***ing Vatican is made of gold!!!
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
Hahah wow, really shooting for the moon there Josh. I eagerly await your evidence.
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