The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
THEbrick
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

the catholic church teaches that we r justified by faith and works

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after 2 votes the winner is...
dairygirl4u2c
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/20/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 568 times Debate No: 62009
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the catholic church teaches that we are justified by faith and works

It is important to remember that Trent is responding to Marin Luther "saved by faith alone..." so you can expect that they are going to emphasize works. and, they go pretty far in doing so.

Here are highlights from Trent, note 24 and 32:
Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Rome teaches that God helps man to do good works and hence to be more justfied... Trent elaborates this idea in chapter 16:

"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, - we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace..."

More Trent:
"the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just"

is saying we are justified by a renewal, ie by works. "makes us just". not that we are just because of Jesus.

"This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. (Council of Trent, 6th Session, ch. Vii)"

this basically says ..... "justification is renewal of inward man through cooperation with grace". although, the actual statement is vague enough to allow one to think it could be applied to a protestant idea "justification causes an inward renewal....by accepting grace".

the key points are "is renewal" v "causes renewal", and "cooperate with grace" v "accept grace"

Trent
"through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified"

--------------

Isn't justification considered a process within the catholic church? (i know salvation is usually considered a process... but these are distinct ideas, so i am clarifying)

here is the catholic encyclopedia.

"We now come to the different states in the process of justification."

http://www.newadvent.org...

i recognize that the encyclopedia is only paraphrasing Trent here at least on the 'process' of justification, and it is important to realize that Dogma is different than an encyclopedia. but still, this should be at least standard teaching, even if one can split hairs about what is actually to the level of "dogma"

but trent did say "makes us just" and has similar verbiage.

i've heard some catholic say "we are justified, and we also increase in justification" which seemed to be somewhat of a cop out. and it deosn't seem to be per se based on catholic dogmatic teachings.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church declares: "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."
THEbrick

Con

First, I'm sorry if I break any rules or go against some unspoken conduct. This is my first debate.

I start by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9** "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." There is a particular emphasis that saving grace comes from God alone and that this is only bestowed upon those who have faith. Nobody can earn salvation.

From a logical standpoint, God is infinite and perfect. As are his gifts and qualities. To examine infinite, it literally means 'impossible to measure or calculate'.* Perfect is defined as 'complete, lacking nothing'.* People cannot work for justification because there is no room. It is complete and unlimited, there is no way to improve upon it. We only have to accept what has been given to us and allow Him to work through us.

On to the point that justification causes a renewal in a person. I quote Romans 12:2-3** "2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." This states that we are first renewed by grace from God. After that we prove what the will of God is; what it is that He wishes for us to do. In other words, grace creates renewal and from this renewal comes works. As indicated by verse three, God has given us our faith as well. Everything we have is a gift freely given. Nothing was done to deserve this.

*These definitions were yielded through a simple Google search
**The scriptures were also Googled
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

i argued what i thought the catholic church taught. con was to argue something else that it taught. instead, con argued what he saw as justification. he didn't fulfill negating the resolution.
THEbrick

Con

THEbrick forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

reiterate
THEbrick

Con

THEbrick forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
I meant you didn't understand the DEBATE resolution : " The Catholic Church teaches..."
Posted by THEbrick 2 years ago
THEbrick
You argue from the catholic side of things, I argue from the protestant side of things. I fulfilled negation of the resolutions through scriptural evidence. Our difference lies in interpretation. I cannot debate if there is nothing to debate against. Perhaps next time you should phrase your question so that people can understand what you are trying to convey.
Posted by THEbrick 2 years ago
THEbrick
I do admit that I may not understand the resolutions of the catholic church. I have been raised protestant and haven't had much interaction or discussion with Catholics or their beliefs. Although, dsjpk5, I am willing to listen and learn if you are willing to explain it to me.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
Con doesn't seem to understand the resolution.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
The only reason catholic hierarchy stresses faith and works is so they can pressure people to plunk more in the collection plate.The works God is talking about is corresponding actions with your faith confession.If you confess healing and walk around talking the sickness and disease, then your words and actions are not lining up with your confession of healing. And that is where most Christian people miss it.

And the reason I brought up finances is God said the love of money is the root of all evil.The catholic hierarchy have vows or poverty but store up untold wealth in the Vatican.And it isn't enough for the pope not to live in his mansion. Sell all that stuff and give to the poor.They let that poverty mess in Christianity oh, 200 years after the day the church got started,after the day of Pentecost.That infected christianity from eastern religions, and it came through the gentiles, you cannot get the Jews to believe it yet.If we are to follow Jesus and do what he says, then prosperity would be a bi-product of that, not poverty.

All they are doing is setting people up to make the same mistake Job made.
Posted by 1Credo 2 years ago
1Credo
I would like to participate in this debate but first would like to have my original question answered:

Is your argument that justification through faith and works is wrong, or that this is Catholic teaching?
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
Amen.
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
Catholics are insane. I know, I was a Catholic.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
That is true. Faith without corresponding actions is dead.If I say , " by the stripes of Jesus I am healed" and then walk off feeling if I am well, then that just killed faith.We walk by faith, not by sight.Jesus never asked people how good they were or how bad they aren't when he healed them. You cannot be good enough to walk in Gods kingdom, and you cannot be so bad that it is off limits to you.If you try to walk in the things of God by being good enough, your filthy rags will not get you there.

That is what is wring with Catholicism. I hear all the time, he was a good catholic. Why did God let him die?Being good will not get you reborn any more than being good will get you healed. It is how you live in God's promises that will have action from God.But just plunking down money in a collection plate or saying 10 our fathers and 6 glory be's will not cause God to bless you.

I have said this before. Get out of the catholic box. Or the Methodist box. Or the Baptist box. There is a whole kingdom of God in that book.When Jesus walked on the water, Peter said, " if it be you, bid me come. " Jesus said, " come". That word of God had the power in itself to hold Peter above the water.

But there were 11 dry boat sitters staying in the boat. They never experienced what Peter did. Even if it was just for a moment. Of course then Peter looked and saw the sea raging, and down he went. He saw the raging sea as being more powerful that the word of Jesus, And he mmption on something that had absolutely nothing to do with Peter walking on water. Being calm will not make it any easier, will it?

Get out of the boat and walk with Jesus.He will show you things that will curl your hair. But boring he will never be.
Posted by 1Credo 2 years ago
1Credo
Is your argument that justification through faith and works is wrong, or that this is Catholic teaching?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by imabench 2 years ago
imabench
dairygirl4u2cTHEbrickTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
dairygirl4u2cTHEbrickTied
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Total points awarded:61 
Reasons for voting decision: Con ff and misunderstood/ misread the debate resolution. Con's arguments had nothing to do with the resolution.