The Instigator
msdryden
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
pshursey
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

the chicken came before the egg

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
pshursey
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/17/2009 Category: Science
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,142 times Debate No: 10159
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (3)
Votes (7)

 

msdryden

Pro

My argument centers around the chicken and the egg. I am new at debating and hope that i will be able to apply some useful knowledge.

I will first define:

Chicken: a domestic fowl bred for flesh or eggs
Egg: animal reproductive body consisting of an ovum or embryo together with nutritive and protective envelopes.

Using the creationism approach:

Genensis 1:20 "And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven"

Therefore, the chicken came before the egg in the fact that God created animals before eggs. Because the animals came before egg, however the chicken originated it first came from an animal before the first egg. Please do not be too mean because this is my first time at this.
pshursey

Con

WOW. my first time as well. this is also going to be very hard because I do not have a lot of time to argue this proposition.

Ok you defined:

Chicken: a domestic fowl bred for flesh or eggs
Egg: animal reproductive body consisting of an ovum or embryo together with nutritive and protective envelopes

We can use the definition to find out what a chicken is actually considered. The first chicken actually came from two different types of species, the red junglefowl and the grey junglefowl. These two species of birds produced the first known chicken. Even though you used the creationism approach, it does not say in the Bible God created chickens. It says that God created birds, which does not mean he created chickens but a bird that could eventually create a new species.

You did not define clearly what you considered a chicken. Even though it is a domestic fowl, it could be considered many of the domestic fowls in the world. The word chicken first originated around 1500 in the Middle English era. It is even shown that India had been using a type of fowl for thousands of years before the word originated. But it did not have the title of chicken. The word egg however was first seen in 450 around the Old English era. This also makes the point that because the word egg comes before chicken, the egg came before the chicken.
Debate Round No. 1
msdryden

Pro

Thanks for responding so fast ;).

Ok I know I did not define everything as well as I should have. Thank you also for going easy on me.

If the egg existed before the chicken, how would the egg have hatched into a chicken, without body warmth from a chicken incubating it long enough to hatch? Also, if the egg contained the DNA inside it for a chicken before it actually hatched, would that not mean that the essential form of the chicken(by way of a DNA strand) must have existed before the egg? Therefore, would not this train of thought lead one to logically conclude that the chicken came before the egg, because the egg had to be incubated? The egg could not have hatched into a chicken without being laid and incubated by a mother hen. Also, the egg might have been eaten (or otherwise destroyed) by predators if the mother hen had not been around to protect it.

Whether or not the word chicken or egg came first does not mean that there wasn't a chicken and an egg around before the word. English was not the first language. So therefore, a chicken and an egg existed long before the English words were used. Your argument about word origin can then be thrown out.

Professor John Brookfield, a specialist in evolutionary genetics at the University of Nottingham, told the UK Press Association this "The living organism inside the eggshell would have had the same DNA as the chicken it would develop into." So the chicken had to come first for the egg to be created.
pshursey

Con

Let me put one thing on the table: If a kangaroo laid an egg from which an ostrich hatched, it would be an ostrich egg, not a kangaroo egg.

With that point, the egg must have come first before the chicken. The chicken came from two different types of species of birds. These two birds came together to create the first domestic chicken. There DNA mutated to form the commonly known chicken of this day. Eggs were around long before the chicken first appeared.

Some animal other than a chicken laid the first chicken egg which contained the first chicken. In this case the chicken egg came before the chicken. Scientists use the theory of punctuated equilibrium which says that the actual speciation of an organism from its ancestral species is usually the result of many mutations combined with new geographical surroundings, called cladogenesis. This shows that the chicken had to first have its DNA in an embryo that developed into its true form.

Finally because you did not define egg at the beginning to be from a chicken, the egg could have been from any species of animal or bird. Dinosaur eggs have been around longer than chicken eggs, you can look at fossil evidence for that claim. For an animal to change, its genetics would have to change also and this is impossible. Therefore the change would have to take place as an embryo or egg. So the first chicken was most likely spawned in prehistoric times as an embryo/egg. Concluding that the first living organism had to come from the form of an egg or embryo.

It was great debating you!!! Hopefully we will both get some useful tips out of this.
Debate Round No. 2
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by EtCaWhJa 4 years ago
EtCaWhJa
If a kangaroo lays an egg, an the creature is an ostrich, the egg would have been an kangaroo until it has been born and has it's name changed. Also what was inside that egg is known from what it's parents are. Not from what came out. Also what if that egg never hatched. Nobody would have called it an ostrich. The egg had to have been born and compared to its parents. Then it would be determined by scientist that it is an ostrich. But even if it looked radically different, it doesn't change it's species until someone changes it name. The genectics would have been kangaroo until it got a mutated dna, still making it a ostrich before the egg because there is dna in the sperm that was put into an egg to be fertilized.

P.S. Kangaroos don't lay eggs.
Posted by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
Con was a little fuzzy explaining it, but he got the argument right. Whatever is deemed the domestic chicken is the product of cross-breeding between two birds not deemed domestic chickens. Hence the hybrid egg had the first DNA of the domestic chicken, and it hatched to produce the first domestic chicken.

Nice clean debate.
Posted by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
studentathletechristian8
Very interesting.

RFD:
Conduct: Tied. Both debaters showed enthusiasm and greeted each other warmly.
S/G: Tied. Both debaters had spelling and grammer errors, but the organization was fine.
Args: Con. Although neither side provided sources, I found Con's argument regarding mutations and animal development to have a slight advantage over Pro's "creator argument."
Sources: Tied. None were used. This debate would have been better if both sides backed up their claims.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by The_Anarchist_Opposition 7 years ago
The_Anarchist_Opposition
msdrydenpshurseyTied
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Vote Placed by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
msdrydenpshurseyTied
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
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Vote Placed by Korashk 7 years ago
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msdrydenpshurseyTied
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Vote Placed by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by wonderwoman 7 years ago
wonderwoman
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Vote Placed by pshursey 7 years ago
pshursey
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