the minimum faith needed for salvation, is not clear
Debate Rounds (3)
i ask christians and they say "believe in jesus". then i point out that the devil does as even the bible says. so they say believe he's your savior. then i point out that some believe that different people see that differently... a good message or atonement etc. a fundamentalist would say a good message is not sufficient. so... you have to believe in atonement is one element. but then there's various beliefs in atonement, "christus victor" v "substitionary" etc.
but then the bible has lots of places where it says what to believe. "confess with your lips that he is lord and believe that he has risen and you will be saved". that doesn't really define what "Lord" is though, thoug h in any case all this atonement stuff may not be necessary after all. but what if they do beleive in atonement and all this other stuff, but dont' know to believe that he was risen? or what if they find that piece of evidence insufficient for belief but believe everything else? most christians just say "believe he's savior and you're good".
and what if you don't like this "savior" stuff given it's a loaded word. what if you just "relied" on Jesus instead, and acknowledged that you're a sinner, wouldn't that be enough? well it's not confesing and beleiving all that stuff, though no one said that was teh end all be all of what's required.
some don't believe he's god... is that okay? a dogamatic would start to list things you must believe. then i point out that that's dogmatic, and most would shy away from that. if it's too short though, they don't like the vagueness or the possibilities they are forgoing for the sake of an easy answer... it's a brutal issue when you get down to it. they want to have their cake... easy answer... and eat it too.. not giving a clear answer.
you have people who are new to the religion and one wouldn think couldn't be held responsible to everything to a T, and you have those who have honest disagreements over what doctrines should be belieeved and what shouldn't. and even if they knew of one doctrine that is considered standard and rejected what tehy knew... what is the minimum they'd have to believe? they can do the "confess with your mouth" stuff and reject say the trinity and be condemned for it?
basically everyone is at different stages. it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk.
so... beyond the whole faith v works debate.. even in terms of faith... what one must believe is not clear or taught very well.
First we must understand that every person is born a sinner, Jesus is our Savior, man is saved by grace, and man must be born again. Man a sinner. Roman 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (1 john 1:8) Some people don't think their sinners. So why get saved? Jesus is our savior. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (1 Timothy 1:15, 2:4) Jesus came to save us, many people do not know this or deniy this.
Man is saved by grace. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD: Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved. (Titus 2:11)
Man must be born again. John 3:3-5 3Jesus answered ans said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus said unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, i say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
1) Believe in Jesus Chirst
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Acts 16:31, Mark 16:16, James 2:19-20)
2) Confess Our Sins
Romans 10:9 That you shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved. (1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13)
3) Repent of Our Sins
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concering his promise, as some men coun slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
4) Be Baptized in Jesus's Name
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Chirst for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5) Receive the Holy Ghost
Acts 1: 4-5, 8 4:And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jersalm, but wait for the promise of the Father. 5:For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days from now. 8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
6) Endure to the End
Matthew 10:22 ...he that endurth to the end shall be saved."
Luke 9:62 ...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves.
Got to have Grace to be saved.
and what about the bible's formula? once it said "believe on the lord and you will be saved" once it said "believe in your heart he was raised from the dead and confess w your mouth tha the is lord and you will be saved".
your conditions are much higher than even these biblical commands
i like what was said in either the comments of this debate or the other one i most recently started on this topic... there's really no minimum that can be established for a "true friend", and there's another comment about "peripheral" and "mandatory" beliefs and the blurry nature of it all. you apparenty are trying to argue against the more sage points, and also set yourself up for not adhereing to simple bibile conditions.
feefee forfeited this round.
feefee forfeited this round.
No votes have been placed for this debate.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate