there is no need for religion
Debate Rounds (3)
Is there a need for religion ? Clearly my opponent says no. But before I present my case I want define some parameters of the debate. Religion nor need has been well defined here as such I will be taking and asking for latitude when considering what it means to need or not need religion.
[Attacking Pros case]
Now pro makes some points about how religion has and can be used for undesirable things, and I don't think anyone on the planet would disagree with that. But remember the proposition that Pro needs to support is that there is no need for religion. As such all his points here are non sequitur.
[Arguments that there is a need for religion]
One of the basics of economics in a free market is that of supply and demand. When there is a demand for something that is the same as saying there is a "need" for it. In Nations where a particular religion is not enforced and people are free to not adhere to any religion or religious belief eg, USA, Australia, England some people never the less still adhere to religion.
What this shows is that there is indeed a need for religion
[Salvation from Nihilistic abyss]
It seems to me most people at some point in their lives realize a few horror fundamentals of human existence. Those being but not limited to, starvation, suffering, poverty, injustice, just surviving through another week etc etc what's even worse is the limited resources we have in order to deal with those problems, and then what do we get in return for suffering through it all...............DEATH.
It's at this point the voice of why bother ? I didn't sign up for this crap ? why not just get it over done with and die right now ? The trouble is there is no refuting these facts of life, it's at this point the choice of suicide comes into play and for some people and frankly there horrible, awful, pointless, meaningless lives suicide isn't just an option it's a temptation.
But never fear religion is here to solve this logical progression of thought with in the words of George Carlin false promises and exaggerated claims. Religion can give you a reason to go on in light of such facts for example by the belief in a blissful after life (what ever you imagine that to be) or how this is all part of some mysterious divine plan that although you don't understand can trust in.
Religion gives people a reason to go on living and take that shot gun out of their mouth.
[Keeping the unwashed masses in check]
Consider the following qoute..."Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -Lucius Annaeus Seneca
People have a tendency to argue and rebel against their fellow humans and the various rules and systems imposed upon them. This creates a problem for the ruling class, but you see if such things are held in the minds of the ruled not of mans making but rather from the divine then they are more likely to accept and not rebel against it, lest they incur the wrath of the divine.
Religion once again here show how it it needed.
A fool and his money are soon departed, I would add not just the fool but, the desperate, the easily manipulated, the uneducated, those who have not developed critical thinking skills.
God loves you........................and he needs money. God needs money to do his work, and funnily enough you can't actually give too God nor has God actually set up a bank account where you can make a donation to the all mighty.
Awwwww you say that makes me sad, I had my credit card ready to put some dollars into Gods bank account, But wait your in luck !!! there just so happen to be people your fellow human beings who just so happen to be doing the Lords work and you can give to God by giving to them and their particular organisation to do the Lords work !!!
Just send your prayfully considered loving gift in Jesus name too............................WWW.Howstupidareyou?.com
Are people really this stupid.........................yes, yes they are.
This could only be achieved in a world where religion exists, and thus for such people who use God to extort money from people religion is needed.
[I want to be important]
Let's face it, no one wants to be a no body. Deep down,given the choice you want to be a somebody. Trouble is most can't be a somebody. Most of humanity who has come before you are merely statisitics. Statistically speaking most people are average.
Well Good news, did you know that a great God wants a personal relationship with you ? Did you know that God has a great plan for your life !!!
You are indeed special.....................well if you can believe that narcissistic non sense.
Religion once again for the win.
[DDO religion forum]
No religion, no religion forum on DDO. Check & Mate.
secondly, my friend has also mentioned that religion gives you some kind of hope to go on in life. and its true. but i think that when you believe something without understanding you will have doubt at some point in life that whatever you believed could be wrong and that doubt will lead you to more misery and sorrow. remember when you believe something blindly you will always have some doubts. and i see lots of religious people everyday and when you ask them any questions about it they will say its all written and you have to follow. so we should all see that what kind of hope we want. the hope which is based on things which we dont even know are right or wrong.
my friend has also said that due to religion lots of lives are saved but if we see clearly, lots and lots of people have died in the world fighting over religion.
religion gives you guidelines to follow in life, but it will not tell you why you should follow them. if you dont agree with them then also you have to follow, otherwise you will have to go to hell or something. so why this religion is playing you. and then what is the use of your own mind. if you start following your own mind and think logically then there is no need for religion. because you can get reason by thinking with your mind, but religion will never provide you with reason.
and my friend also said that those who are believing in after life and god's plans are fools or average people. but religion is not at all necessary for them. we think that they are surviving because of religion but its not that.
today people travel from one place to another by vehicles but a long time ago there were no vehicles. still at that time people survived. i think our people also can survive nicely without religion. its just that we are not learning from our mistakes. we think that we can not live without our mobile phones, but if some day suppose our mobile phones are gone and we can never have any mobile phones. what do you think, we will stop living? no we will live because we know that it was not that a big deal. we have made religion so big in our perspective that we cant think beyond it. but if we try to see we will get that it was not at all needed.
Has Pro being able to advance his case that their is no need for religion ? Has Pro being able to refute my arguments that support the claim that there is a need for religion ? I don't think Pro has being able to do either I shall now explain in more detail.
It seems what Pro really has in mind is that although there was/is a need for religion, that need should of not existed in the first place.
But under free market principles it's not up to some central committee nor Pro to determine what is or is not needed but rather let people freely determine for themselves............that's kind of the whole point of supply and demand.
[Salvation from Nihilistic abyss]
Pro does seem to agree that religion can give people a reason to go on in life in the light of the various facts and logical thoughts that lead to considerations of suicide I alluded to in the first round.
Pro brings up various points about such religious beliefs being uncertain or maybe not believed in the future or having doubts later . But notice that none of this actually refutes my central point, that being religion can be used by people to give them a reason to go on living and as such I think this argument still stands.
Pro did not counter the argument here about how people who use God to exhort money from people obviously need adherence to some form of religious belief to do that. As such I still maintain for those people they need religion.
[I want to be important]
[DDO religion forum]
No religion, no DDO religious forum............is that really the world we want to live in ? I mean where would all us religion forum people go ? the economic forum ?............................I don't think so.
[Need vs Survival)
I think Pro conflates two separate issues here those between what is or is not needed in a more specific survival sense and what is needed in a more general sense. Most of my arguments are in support of religion being needed in a general sense.
Yes it could be said religion is not needed for the most basic survival in the same way you don't need a mobile phone to survive. As long as you have just enough food/water/shelter the bare basics you get to live another day.
But again clearly my arguments that there is a need for religion refer to a more generalized need.
I submit I as per my arguments that show there is indeed a need for religion in that more generalized way.
But i am not satisfied yet because clearly he is not ready to believe in what i am saying.
I will start with an example. Suppose if someone smokes and he obviously knows that smoking is injurious to health but then also he smokes. What is the reason??
The reason is that he is addicted. He want to quit but he cant. Whenever he feel tensed he smokes. He thinks that smoking is making him feel less tensed.
The same thing is true with religion. It is an addiction and those who are addicted cant make their way out of it.They think that it is helping them but its not.
Religion may have saved some suicides as you think but its not that. Religion tells you lies and gives you false explanation.
Religion gives you a false definition of god. If god would have made any religion then he would have told you directly.
My friend has also said that what kind of society we want to live in. I will say that i want to live in a society where whatever i do i do with a reason. There should be no religion coming between me and my god. And as far as hope is considered, if you believe in god then you do not require a religion to give you hope.
All what i am talking about is that i do not want our future generations to live in a forced environment. they should live freely and think with their own mind and stay true to that, and that does not requires a religion. I do not think i need to elaborate any further, i have made my point very clear. Thank you.
I think there is a problem with Pros response. Since from the opening around and again the last round Pro spends alot of time arguing that religion can be used for harm or is undesirable or has a net negative effect on humanity and perhaps even humanity would be better without some or all religion at all.
I could grant Pro all of that and it would not matter because remember Pros claim that he is seeking to justify is that there is no need for religion.
Again same problem with Pros smoking analogy, putting aside the error in equivalence between an addiction of nicotine and the effect that has on the brain and religious belief being an "addiction" once again it's an argument to support that religion is or can be harmful.
I did present argument to justify that there is a need for religion in a more generalized way, and those arguments remain barely touched by Pro including the economic, salvation from Nihilistic abyss and the Ka-ching $$$ argument.
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