The Instigator
GMDebater
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
KeytarHero
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

therr are no messianic proohecies that can be attributed to Jesus

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
KeytarHero
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/4/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,302 times Debate No: 17391
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

GMDebater

Pro

Rules and Debating Procedure

  • Round 1
    • Con must present any prophecies you claim is a proof. Please label them for clarity of response (Contradiction A, B, C, etc).
  • Round 2
    • I will respond to the prophecy and show how they were forged, do not exist, or are not true prophecies at all.
    • Con may respond in round 2 either with challenging my response, or presenting new prophecies (or both).
  • Round 3
    • I will respond to his challenges or new contradictions.
    • Con may only respond to my answers.
  • Round 4
    • I will respond to his challenges.
    • In the close of round 4 Con may not present new arguments or respond to my arguments. The purpose of this is to give an even round.

A note about Burden of Proof
This debate does not have burden of proof in the way normal debates do. My burden is to rebut the common "proof" texts and my opponent must present them.

Limitation of Space
Since it takes more space to answer a prophecy, I am limiting my opponent to 3 prophecies.
If you wish to add a prophecy, you will need to drop a prophecy

Good luck!

KeytarHero

Con

I would like to thank GM Debater for issuing this challenge.

There were many prophecies in the Old Testament that referred to Jesus, and I will only limit the prophecies listed here to three. These are three of the clearest prophecies that we can see in Scripture.

Prophecy One: Jesus would be born in Bethlehem

Micah 5:2 -- "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

We see this prophecy fulfilled in Matthew 2:1-6 and Luke 2:1-7.

Prophecy Two: The Coming of Zion's King

Zechariah 9:9 -- "Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."

We see this prophecy being fulfilled in Matthew 21:1-11.

Prophecy Three: The New Covenant

Jeremiah 31:31-34 -- "'The time is coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them' declares the LORD. 'This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,' declares the LORD. 'I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD," because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,' declares the LORD. 'For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.'"

We see this prophecy fulfilled in 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 and Hebrews 8:7-13, and since covenants are set into motion by blood sacrifices, the New Covenant was established when Christ died on the cross.

The resolution is "there are no Messianic prophecies that can be attributed to Jesus." This can be shown false if 1) I can find just one Messianic prophecy that was attributed to Jesus, or 2) even if it could be attributed to someone else, it still applies to Jesus. What makes Jesus so special is that there weren't just one or two vague prophecies that He fulfilled, there were many very specific prophecies that He fulfilled (such as being born in Bethlehem).

I look forward to our next round.
Debate Round No. 1
GMDebater

Pro

Thank you, KeytarHero, you are a fabulous debater and I'm excited to be debating with you once more.

Prophecy 1: Jesus would be born in Bethlehem

Let's examine some of the issues with using this passage.

Micah 5:2 -- "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

I highted the important phrases. Tis verse denotes his roots, "Out of thee" not "You [Messiah] will be born there."

I'm interested in knowing more about this person. Let's look at the following verses:

"And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from old, from days of yore. Therefore, He shall deliver them until the time a woman in confinment gives birth. And the rest of his brothers shall return upon the children of Israel. And he shall stand and lead with the might of the Lord, with the pride of the Lord, his God: and they shall return, for now he shall become great to the ends of the earth. And this shall be peace. Should Assyria come into our land, and should they tread upon our palaces, we will appoint over them seven shepherds and eight princes of men. And they shall break the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod at its gates; and he shall save [us] from Assyria, who comes into our land, and who treads in our border. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people-like dew sent by the Lord, like torrents of rain upon vegatation that does not hope for any man and does not wait for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the nations, in the midst of many people-like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among the flocks of sheep, which, if it passes through, treads down and tears in pieces, and no one [can] save anything. Your hand shall be raised upon your oppressors and your enemies shall be destroyed."

I highlighted some of the most important things. Notice that he has a God; therefore, this person cannot be God (as Christianity claims Jesus was). He is also denoted as a military leader. Jesus did not fulfill a single part of these passages. Especially the part that says, "And this shall be peace..." there was no peace when Jesus came; in fact, there was the exact opposite.

Prophecy 2: The Coming of Zion's King

My opponent cites Zechariah 9:9. Let's examine Jesus' deeds and the full prophecy.

Matthew 21:2-32, "Saying unto them, 'Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find a donkey tied, and a colt loose with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man shall say ought unto you, ye shall say The Lord hath need of theml and straightway he will send them.'"

Notice anything funny? Matthew has Jesus on a circus act riding on TWO animals. Zechariah has this Messiah on only 1 animal. Funny you haven't noticed that, eh?

Thousands of people rode on donkey's into Jerusalem. Therefore, we need to look at the other prophecies that this Messiah is going to fulfill from this chapter.

Notice that Zechariah is talking about a king. Was Jesus a king? No.

If Jesus was this man, he wouldn't be so concerned about how he rode into Jerusalem, but how he would fulfill the next verse that says, "...and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,..." Once again, we need to face the challenge that Jesus NEVER had a dominion and never was a king. Moreover, we have a New Testament verse from matthew 15:24 that says that Jesus' message was not for the heathen; thus contradicting Zechariah's prophesy for the Messiah. Having salvation simply means to escape the trouble, which is Israel's expectation of messiah.

Prophecy 3: "New" Covenant

My opponent cites Jeremiah 31:31-34. Let's take a deeper look.

If the birth of the Christian religion really did introduce the new covenant, then there shuold no longer be any need for anyone to teach the word of G-d, "for they shall know me." Since, as everyone with eyes can see, the world does not yet recognize G-d, and the Christians are still trying to teach religion to the world, as are others. It is quite clear that the verse, "they shall teach no more every man, saying, Know the Lord" does not yet apply in our day and time. In other words, the New Covenant has not yet taken place. It is quite contradictory for the Christians to spend millions of dollars in their attempt to convert the world to Christianity, and to claim that we already live under the terms of the new covenant.


Conclusion

We have seen instances where my opponent took "Old" Testament scripture out of context. I shown how these were NOT fulfilled in its entirety--a vital part for a fulfillment. Therefore, I urge a strong vote for pro.

**Reminder: My opponent CAN drop these prophecies or respond to my challenges. NO MORE THAN 3 prophecies may be in play at a single time.**

KeytarHero

Con

Thank you again to GM Debater for once again issuing this challenge.

Prophecy 1: Jesus Would be Born in Bethlehem

I'm not sure why GM Debater takes issue with this prophecy. To come out of a country is to be born there. The prophecy really couldn't be any clearer.

This person could, in fact, be God. The fact that He "has a God" indicates that not only would Jesus be God, but He would also be fully Man (for instance, Jesus prayed to God, calling him Father). The fact that he "had a God" indicated that He would be Jewish and would believe in the one true God as true Jews do. This prophecy does not denote Jesus would be a military leader. In fact, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). Jesus constantly taught to love our enemies, to love each other as we love ourselves. What is more peaceful than that?

Jesus fulfilled every part of this passage.

Prophecy 2: The Coming of Zion's King

There is no contradiction in the passages here. Jesus rode on a young donkey. There may have been two animals present, but Jesus didn't sling his legs over both of them. I don't think a human's legs can stretch that far. He rode into Jerusalem riding one donkey. If you see me eating an apple while holding a banana, then someone asks you where I am and you say, "he's in the next room eating an apple." You haven't lied. You just didn't mention the banana I was holding.

Jesus does, in fact, have a dominion. Jesus, as God, created the world and the entire universe. He did speak peace unto the heathen. In fact, He hung out with tax collectors and sinners, those the Pharisees would never have deigned to hang out with. The verse in question doesn't say His message wasn't for heathen. His message was for all that would hear. But His specific mission while on Earth was to the "lost sheep of Israel," which are the people that He reached while He was here on Earth.

Prophecy 3: New Covenant

The Instigator misunderstands the meaning of this verse. The New Covenant must be established with a blood sacrifice. The New Covenant was instituted when Jesus died on the cross, shedding His blood for the world. When the passage in Jeremiah says that we will no longer have to teach others saying, 'know the Lord,' this is because we can now know God personally. We no longer have to go to Synagogue and have a rabbi preach to us from the word, or go to a priest to make sacrifices for our sins. We can now know God personally, which was made possible by Christ dying on the cross.

Conclusion

The Instigator has several fundamental misunderstandings of Scripture, which are made evident by his attacks on these prophecies. I have shown that they have, in fact, been fulfilled in their entirety by Jesus. I do not anticipate dropping any of these prophecies as I wholeheartedly trust in their accuracy and in their fulfillment by our Lord and Savior, Jesus. I look forward to our next round.
Debate Round No. 2
GMDebater

Pro

GMDebater forfeited this round.
KeytarHero

Con

Well, the instigator has forfeited the round and indeed, his account is no longer active. This should go without saying, but please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
GMDebater

Pro

GMDebater forfeited this round.
KeytarHero

Con

Well, GMDebater has forfeited this round, as well. Please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Made it in time.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
i hope so to.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
I wasn't offended, I've just been busy. I'm going to be up in the mountains today. I have until 3:00 to post my response, which means if I can be back by 2:00 I should have enough time to post it. I hope to be back by then.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
it is fine. I am terribly sorry if you were offended at what i said.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Sorry, I've been incredibly busy. I'm going to try and get my next round argument in but I may have to forfeit this round. I don't have time to do it now because I have to get to bed (I have an early day tomorrow). I hope I can respond in time.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
true. I have a habit of doing that. sorry
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
You really shouldn't assume you've won until you've heard my response to your criticisms.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
I'll post it tomorrow afternoon my time
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Well, I await your rebuttal.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
"The resolution is "there are no Messianic prophecies that can be attributed to Jesus." This can be shown false if 1) I can find just one Messianic prophecy that was attributed to Jesus, or 2) even if it could be attributed to someone else, it still applies to Jesus. What makes Jesus so special is that there weren't just one or two vague prophecies that He fulfilled, there were many very specific prophecies that He fulfilled (such as being born in Bethlehem)."
Or I can show how you took every one of those verses out of context and how they were mis translated :)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
GMDebaterKeytarHeroTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: ff. prophecies not proophecies!
Vote Placed by ApostateAbe 5 years ago
ApostateAbe
GMDebaterKeytarHeroTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeit