The Instigator
momo_taro
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
KevinL75
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points

torture should be allowed in justifiable situation, such as military interpretations.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,956 times Debate No: 656
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (7)

 

momo_taro

Pro

i9 feel that it is in certain situations just for military personnel to torture inorder to find out life saving information. As a borderline utilitarianism i feel that one person's sufferage can be outweight by the "greater good"/ ending/preventing of sufferage for many people. Also that the ends justify the means. Yes i understand the moral "wrongness" of torture but again the greater good for the greater amount of people.
KevinL75

Con

I've got a couple of different levels of objection to your argument, so to be helpful, I'll number them so we can keep track.

1. I don't accept the premise that torture is a useful tool to uncover life-saving information. I believe that torture is useful in obtaining information, I just doubt the validity of that information. To stop the process of torture, it is easy to simply provide false information - perhaps even information that would lead U.S. troops into harm's way. I'm not suggesting it's impossible to get the truth from individual through torture, I'm just suggesting that it can easily result in false information.

2. I'll also counter the invocation of utilitarianism - it is a theory which has many absurd results which most people would find absolutely appalling. If utilitarianism is a necessary assumption of your argument, I'll have a lot more to say about it later.

3. If our goal is in fact to achieve the greatest good for the greatest amount of people, we should be looking for a way to get the necessary information from those held captive WITHOUT harming them. That way the same ends are achieved, but the means don't take away from the greater good.

I think that in order for your argument to work there, you'll need to assume that torture is the ONLY way to get certain information - can you defend that assumption?
Debate Round No. 1
momo_taro

Pro

ok lets start with number 1.

First off i must ask, have you ever been tourtured?
As i cannot say that i have i must however asume that will in torture you do not have the abillity to think on your feet. You must be able to think on your feet inorder to make a false statement that has the ability to put forces in harms way.

Now number 2.
Utalitarianism isnt a necicary belief in this debate. It is just a possible explination for justifying torture. it is one of many. But as i see it if we pour some water on someones head and they give us information that warnes us of a bomb attempt so we prevent 200 deaths. It sounds morall to me and it meets utalitarianism ideas.

Number 3.
Utalitarianism says that the suffering of others can be outweight by the releif of a larger quantity of people so your stupid argument is shot out of the sky.

To awnser your arg on only possible solution.
i have said earlier "in certain situations" certain situations that other methods dont work. so torture is the only possible option.

New argument... NUMBER 4
Utalitarianism as any other Belief isn't w/out flaws. You could poit out all the flaws you want and for one, it doesnt matter that wont win you the debate. Two, i can counter almost anything you can say and throw any other belief out the window.
KevinL75

Con

You said: "You must be able to think on your feet inorder to make a false statement that has the ability to put forces in harms way."

I don't have to have been tortured to know that this isn't a true statement. Many of our torture techniques are the same ones used by the Communist government of the Soviet Union during the cold war. This is an exerpt from an article written for the Defense Department in 1956 entitled "Communist Interrogation." Keep in mind that this is describing many of the very same techniques we're using today in the war on terror:

"The cumulative effects of the entire experience may be almost intolerable. [The prisoner] becomes mentally dull and loses his capacity for discrimination. He becomes malleable and suggestible, and in some instances he may confabulate. By suggesting that the prisoner accept half-truths and plausible distortions of the truth, [the interrogator] makes it possible for the prisoner to rationalize and thus accept the interrogator's viewpoint as the only way out of an intolerable situation."

You said: "Utalitarianism isnt a necicary belief in this debate. It is just a possible explination for justifying torture. it is one of many."

If it's not a necessary belief for your side, then why haven't you offered an alternative assumption? You seem to be sticking with utilitarianism, so I'll stick with criticizing it.

You said: "Utalitarianism says that the suffering of others can be outweight by the releif of a larger quantity of people so your stupid argument is shot out of the sky."

Did you read what I wrote? I'm aware that utilitarianism dictates that the suffering of others can be outweighed by the positive benefits to others. But, fundamentally it's about the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and obtaining life-saving information without torture produces more good for more people than obtaining it using torture, all other things being equal.

You said: "i have said earlier "in certain situations" certain situations that other methods dont work. so torture is the only possible option."

It's an awfully big assumption to say that torture is the only possible option in some situations. Torture seems to be the go-to move for the U.S. government right now - we don't seem to be trying other techniques to get information from our prisoners. So how could we (or you) possibly know that torture is the only option in some instances?

You said: "Utalitarianism as any other Belief isn't w/out flaws. You could poit out all the flaws you want and for one, it doesnt matter that wont win you the debate."

If utilitarianism is a necessary assumption for your side, I think it would certainly win the debate if I could successfully poke enough holes in it. You have yet to provide another belief system underlying your argument, so for now, it's still propped up by utilitarianism.

You said: "Two, i can counter almost anything you can say and throw any other belief out the window."

Good for you :D
Debate Round No. 2
momo_taro

Pro

momo_taro forfeited this round.
KevinL75

Con

I think my existing arguments speak for themselves, so I won't expand in this round since my opponent hasn't responded to anything I said in round 2.
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by UberCryxic 9 years ago
UberCryxic
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by jwebb893 9 years ago
jwebb893
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by KevinL75 9 years ago
KevinL75
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by ScrewSociety62 9 years ago
ScrewSociety62
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by revleader5 9 years ago
revleader5
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
momo_taroKevinL75Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30