The Instigator
grecherme
Pro (for)
Winning
18 Points
The Contender
MaxHayslip
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points

van halen metal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/4/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,485 times Debate No: 4899
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (11)

 

grecherme

Pro

some people may not include van halen as a metal band but they definatley are!!!! at the time that van halen started the band that was METAL!!! how come do people think of kiss as a metal band but not van halen?!?!?! van halen have a number of glam metal albums which include : van halen 1, van halen 2, 1984, F.U.C.K and 5150!!! and besides...they have inarguabbly one of the most influencial guitarists ever!! EVH!!
MaxHayslip

Con

I have three separate series of arguments, if either series is conceded CON wins; I will also like to tell you that because of the irrelevancy of sentences (more like phrases =P ) 3-5 I will exclude them from the debate.

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Argument 1, Van Halen is not Metal Rock:

Definition of Metal Rock: aggressive and heavily amplified rock music, commonly performed by groups that wear spectacular or bizarre costumes. (1)

Definition of Rock (music): a style of popular music that derives in part from blues and folk music and is marked by a heavily accented beat and a simple, repetitive phrase structure. (2)

Definition of Agressive: characterized by or tending toward unprovoked offensives, attacks, invasions, or the like; militantly forward or menacing (3)

Music by Van Halen to be listened to as a judge of the debate; they must comply with the above definitions.

----- Jump by Van Halen
----- Jamie's Crying by Van Halen

Van Halen fails to adhere to the definition of both aggressive and 'groups that wear spectacular or bizarre costumes'; if you take note of both their aesthetics and type of music it shows that although Van Halen is rock (not good rock at that) it is most definitely not metal. Van Halen's songs often resemble blues, such as it is in the definition of Rock 'n' Roll.

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Argument 2, Van Halen is not Metal (as stated in the Topic of the debate):

Definition of Metal: any of a class of elementary substances, as gold, silver, or copper, all of which are crystalline when solid and many of which are characterized by opacity, ductility, conductivity, and a unique luster when freshly fractured. (2)

Because Van Halen is a musical group made up of human beings, they cannot be 'metal' as defined in the above source, thus you have to vote CON.

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Argument 3, "Van Halen Metal" is non-existent:
Because there is no such thing as "Van Halen Metal" and I have advocated the side of Con, I should win on the fact that I am disagreeing to something that does not exist (I have taken a stance disagreeing with it's reality in this argument).

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Citations (If you end up using any references, please cite them):
(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2)http://dictionary.reference.com...'n'%20roll
(3) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(4) http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 1
grecherme

Pro

dude!!!!!! seriously...your last two arguments are simply idiotic!!

and about your first argument....

point 1: the type of clothes the band wears to a concert doesnt make the band metal or not!! for example...iron maiden and metallica dont wear bizarre costumes at their costumes...but u cant say that they re not metal!!!

point 2: if u re going to use definition to enphasise your arguments!!! i ll use them to =P

Type of rock music marked by highly amplified, distorted "power chords" on electric guitar, a hard beat, thumping bass, and often dark lyrics. It evolved in Britain and the U.S. in the late 1960s from the heavy, blues-oriented music of Steppenwolf, Jimi Hendrix, and others. In the 1970s the genre was defined by the music of bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Kiss, AC/DC, and Aerosmith. After a period of decline, a new generation of bands such as Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, M�tley Cr�e, and Van Halen revived heavy metal in the 1980s, along with the careers of many of its pioneers, including Ozzy Osbourne of Black Sabbath. (check.....http://www.answers.com...)

MY POINT!!! --- not all metal has to be deafening!!! kiss are considered to be metal (glam metal) and MOST songs of van halen are harder than kiss's. so you cant say that kiss are metal and van halen aren't (bdw...i also love kiss)

KISS - heaven's on fire... ( considered to be glam metal)

VAN HALEN -
MaxHayslip

Con

You said that my second and third arguments are idiotic, but they are necessary for a contextual debate; you conceded the arguments which I said would be clear grounds for losing the debate. Therefore you must vote CON on these arguments alone.

1) The argument I gave concerning the attire that Van Halen wore pertained to the validity of the debate so that their 'metalness' (Not a word, I know) could be fully tested. Because Van Halen failed to adhere to the full definition they are not Metal; just another rock band. I would also like to emphasize that you should not focus on other bands and whether or not they are metal because it is irrelevant to the debate at hand.

2) I will start of by stating that the qualifications from your source are severely lacking; although i will also point out several other definitions of 'heavy metal' found on the page that your band still fails to adhere to.

An Anglo-American style of rock, characterized by loud, sustained ‘power chords' played on the electric guitar and a persistent beat that may be aggressively fast or intentionally ponderous. Lyrics (concerning sex, rebellion and violence) are delivered in an extreme, screeching and barking style between guitar chords. Exponents include Jimi Hendrix, The Who and Led Zeppelin.

Your own definition stated that metal must be deafening ("highly amplified") and contain "dark lyrics"; I would like to go ahead an state that the songs Jump or Jamie's Crying contain neither attributes.

I would like to say this, and make it very clear; WE ARE NOT ARGUING IF KISS NOR ANY BAND (Other than Van Halen) IS METAL OR NOT.
Debate Round No. 2
grecherme

Pro

You're bringing up some good points but infact i think that this topic will never be resolved because different people have different opinions.

I was just on a blog of a bunch of metalheads and they too were debating about this same topic (although they were not stupid enough to confuse the metal -genre with the metal - elements...but that's besides the point). They too couldn't agree if van halen was a metal band or a hard rock band.

My final point....by the definition of what metal was 30 years ago (when the band started) they were definately metal but as time went on and other bands suck as metallica..iron maiden...slayer and other much harder bands started to release singles and albums people could see the obvious difference in style between the two types of bands but u cant exclude them from the genre just because metal evolved into a much harder style! Because if we do that...maybe just maybe someday another set of revolutionary and start playing in a new fashion and we start questioning the metalness (yur word :p) of bands such as iron maiden...metallica ect. I know u think that now i m just being offensive because the likes of iron maiden and metallica are they bands that define metal today (just like van halen..acdc...kiss...black sabbath ect did in the 70s).......no one knows....
MaxHayslip

Con

Well, please realize this, I did not confuse the genre of music with elements, I was perserving the contextuality of the resolution. If you are unable to adhere to the resolution that you created, that is a problem of yours; if you wanted to shape this debate in a way you wanted you should have made it 'Resolve: the group Van Halen is a metal band'. Your resolution was very ambiguous which prevented me from making any argument with fear that you would switch the grounds of the debate; thus you become a moving target.

Your argument for the zeitgeist of metal is void because the evolution of definitions should be the predominant over the past definitions. Under that mentality the Swastica would be nothing but a sign for the Indian culture; you must look at the evolutionary process of music to realize that Van Halen is no longer metal (if it ever was) and is now more or less rock n' roll. One day other bands will question what our definition of the genre 'metal' is, once that day comes we must realize that this 'revolutionary' band will not be the definition of Genre. You cannot adhere everything to past definitions or we are bound to never have any true progress.

You have to vote Con for both the contextuality of the debate and because I showed that the AFF failed to adhere truly to the definition of 'metal' (in all forms of it =P). I have shown that even if at one time Van Halen was metal, the evolutionary process of music has now decided it is rock n' roll. It is necessary to allow this process to continue if you want any progress in the realm of music.
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RockEnthusiast5150 5 years ago
RockEnthusiast5150
If I may... I know I'm a young person to have an opinion on a band that had been around almost 20 years before my birth (counting the club touring from 74' until their signing with Warner Brother's Records in 77') but the original argument here in and of itself has quite a few holes in it. though I guess that first before getting to far into this that I consider Van Halen to be a metal band. first it is very hard to convince someone of the hardness of a group if in your argument you support yourself with the non metal side of the group. Don't get me wrong here I love Sammy Hagar I find him to be a fantastic vocalist but he softened the band almost to the point of throwing them out of the hard rock genre let alone metal so even though OU812 and 5250 are personal favorites of mine they must be thrown out for the sake of this argument. Instead the focus should be on the Roth era Predominately Fair Warning if you want the best results. As far as other opinions by the people who matter the last opening act Van Halen gave was for Black Sabbath. the same Black Sabbath that is highly renown for being the fathers of metal music and Ozzy Osborne himself has solidified Van Halen as a metal group so there for that alone should be enough to convince a number of people seeing that if you are blessed by the founders of something be it metal or no then there really isn't any other thing you can be
Posted by nofairman 8 years ago
nofairman
Who cares if EVH is metal or not? He kills on the guitar!
Posted by Puck 9 years ago
Puck
"Argument 2, Van Halen is not Metal (as stated in the Topic of the debate):"

Incorrect. The proper adjective is metallic. No such claim was made.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Van Halen, what I've heard of them, counts as metal. So, oddly enough, does KISS. That does not mean either is GOOD metal. :P

"
Doesn't that pretty much sum up most metal?"

The dressing up part definitely not, that's mostly a glam metal issue, along with a few oddballs like Slipknot or Marilyn Manson

As for the sh*t part, tastes vary, but whatever this may be, that is not on the list:
Posted by Zerosmelt 9 years ago
Zerosmelt
van halen is a terrible, terrible band....

but this is just my two cents. im sure no one gives a dam
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
"kiss is not metal in any way. i a bunch of fcuking douches dressing up and playing sh*t for money"

Doesn't that pretty much sum up most metal?
Posted by Chuckles 9 years ago
Chuckles
by todays standards liek someone said already van halen is not metal. kiss is not metal in any way. i a bunch of fcuking douches dressing up and playing sh*t for money
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
Oh.... Didn't notice the rhyme.

/facepalm
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
I'm not being serious, I'm just making rhymes... no smiley doesn't mean I wasn't kidding. It makes my tone more mysterious;)
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
o_o;

What's the right line here.... oh yeah!

WHY SO SERIOUS?
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by The_Devils_Advocate 9 years ago
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grechermeMaxHayslipTied
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Vote Placed by adma_ta_feek 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by lkfjsglfskjgl 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by ducadrian 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by antheaaa 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by fesoj 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by grecherme 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by brittwaller 9 years ago
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