The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Con (against)
Winning
37 Points

what one must believe to be saved is not clear... or at least is taught sufficiently in proper terms

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/13/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,282 times Debate No: 2636
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (13)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

i ask christians and they say "believe in jesus". then i point out that the devil does. so they say believe he's your savior. then i point out that some believe that different people see that differently... a good message or atonement etc. a fundamentalist would say a good message is not sufficient. so... you have to believe in atonement is one element.
some don't believe he's god... is that okay? a dogamatic would start to list things you must believe. then i point out that that's dogmatic, and most would shy away from that. they want to have their cake... easy answer... and eat it too.. not giving a clear answer.
it could be generally whatever savior means to you. but what if someone believes he's god etc, a new convert? that wouldn't cut it. basically everyone is at different stages.
it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk.

some people say you can't violate a tenant of the bible beliefs of Jesus... but oesnt i know many who say they don't believe he's god or aren't sure despite the bible. does that mean they're not saved? i know some who say it don't matter if they believe these things... they must believe in atonement. if that's the case though, then atonement is a necessary thing.
i could point out many christian who don't know what that is... beyond the mere lack of knoing the definition etc.
so could it be it's not what you believe but rather what you don't? that doesn't help cause the list problem is just starting in the negative direction.

it seems the right answer is it depends on where you are and your heart relationship with God in terms of your believe in jesus. how many christians would say that when you ask them what you must believe? i know of none.

so... beyond the whole faith v works debate.. even in terms of faith... what one must believe is not clear or taught very well.
Kleptin

Con

I believe the requirements are fairly clear.

1. Accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior
2. Ask forgiveness for your sins (including original sin)
3. Try your best to live a sinless life and repent when you do.

I don't see where the confusion is. Cold you please calrify your argument?
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

*******1. Accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior
2. Ask forgiveness for your sins (including original sin)
3. Try your best to live a sinless life and repent when you do.

I don't see where the confusion is. Cold you please calrify your argument?
***********

i know many dogmatics who say that if you believe "savior" means that he taught a good message that saved you from hell, then that is mistaken, and you are not saved.
would you argue that these dogmatics are wrong, and that a gneral notion of reliance is sufficient?

also... what if someone accepts him as lord and savior, but doesn't know or do the other two? are they not saved? i know a few christians who would fall into that category. are they not saved? by your list, they're excluded.
would you agree that your list is ideal, but that it doesn't *necessarily* have to be that list?

also... what about the passage that says to confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and that he's risen from the dead and you'd be saved? to you, is this passage being too vague and really the risen stuff isn't necessarily necessary? and in fact taht passage should have added stuff about acknowledging your sins?

it seems like ultimately, even if that's your formula, and however you answer these questions though,,,, it's just you making the statement. there's plenty of fundamentalists who would disagree. so it's not clearly taught or anything.
Kleptin

Con

"i know many dogmatics who say that if you believe "savior" means that he taught a good message that saved you from hell, then that is mistaken, and you are not saved.

would you argue that these dogmatics are wrong, and that a gneral notion of reliance is sufficient?"

No no, by "savior" I meant you must believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of prophecy, God in flesh, and that he died on the cross to cleanse you of your sins. This notion is accepted by dogmatics and casual Christians alike, it is a basic tenet.

"also... what if someone accepts him as lord and savior, but doesn't know or do the other two? are they not saved? i know a few christians who would fall into that category. are they not saved? by your list, they're excluded.
would you agree that your list is ideal, but that it doesn't *necessarily* have to be that list?"

They are excluded. Well technically, a person that accepts Christ as lord and savior is cleared of original sin, so 1 and 2 go hand in hand. Basically, your argument would be "well, what if he doesn't know how to do the third?". We sin every day of our lives, and must ask continuous forgiveness or else our souls remain tainted. So yes, a person who accepts Christ but does not continuously ask for forgiveness will not make it into heaven. Believing in Christ is more than just the belief, it is living the belief.

"also... what about the passage that says to confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and that he's risen from the dead and you'd be saved? to you, is this passage being too vague and really the risen stuff isn't necessarily necessary? and in fact taht passage should have added stuff about acknowledging your sins?"

It's not being too vague at all. In fact, it's simplifying things. The gospels were written in a time where Christians were heavily persecuted and there were no central churches or teachings. Converting Romans or Jews had to be streamlined. "Risen from the dead" essentially means Jesus was more than man, he was both man and god.

"it seems like ultimately, even if that's your formula, and however you answer these questions though,,,, it's just you making the statement. there's plenty of fundamentalists who would disagree. so it's not clearly taught or anything."

I don't think any fundamentalist or any Christian would be against what I just said. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

so while you purport to make it easy by giving those tenants, you're not making easy cause those words are loaded to mean some specific things. so you really have to break out a list of things that must be believed.
so, it's not clear if all you say is those words you initially said.
also... many new christians are not saved because they may have the feeling of it etc or believe one thing like he's God, but they don't belief the delineated explanation that you said yet. this is contrary to what most christians would believe, not sure about you i sppose... ie that they'd be damend if they believed in jesus albeit not completely.

also, you said the "confess with your mouth" verse isn't too vague. all you came back with was "we need to streamline the process". how can you streamline it such that someone hears that verse and things they saved... actually isn't saved because you didn't expand on the full meaning of the verse, and the context of the verse wiht other ones?

basically... to make a little clarifcation... the absolute minimum is not being described properly. the minimum you're saying is not a minimum but a cursory overlook of a bunch of ideas.
(i'm not saying the minimum to get by... such taht you're waffling your way into heaven "i got to do the minimum to get by"... i'm saying the theological minimum needed)
Kleptin

Con

"so while you purport to make it easy by giving those tenants, you're not making easy cause those words are loaded to mean some specific things. so you really have to break out a list of things that must be believed."

No, not just believed. Done. The list I gave is fairly simple and really not open to other interpretation. Other factions may add on to what I've just said, but no faction will ever say "oh no, you don't need that to get into heaven".

"so, it's not clear if all you say is those words you initially said."

That's all I say, that's all it means, that's all that needs to be said. I think you're just overcomplicating things when it's actually very simple. You keep saying that those tenets I listed are vague or open to interpretation, but all you are really doing is saying that you are confused. The fact that you are confused does not mean what I say is unclear. Perhaps the problem is a misunderstanding on your end.

"also... many new christians are not saved because they may have the feeling of it etc or believe one thing like he's God, but they don't belief the delineated explanation that you said yet. this is contrary to what most christians would believe, not sure about you i sppose... ie that they'd be damend if they believed in jesus albeit not completely."

The fact is, they aren't. Christianity isn't a one step process, it's a lifelong commitment, a lifestyle. No Christian who knows what he is talking about would suggest otherwise. It is not contrary at all. If you spent some more time citing outside sources, then I might be able to explain, but again, all you are doing is expressing your own confusion. This is not an argument that Christianity is vague or unclear. It just shows that you don't understand it.

"also, you said the "confess with your mouth" verse isn't too vague. all you came back with was "we need to streamline the process". how can you streamline it such that someone hears that verse and things they saved... actually isn't saved because you didn't expand on the full meaning of the verse, and the context of the verse wiht other ones?"

I understand what you are asking. Scripture is not the end-all be-all for Christians. Especially not when they serve a different purpose. The "confess with your mouth" thing has an alternate purpose, which was a fast-route simple method of spreading the faith. A quickie ritual, if you will. What matters is that you truly believe in your heart that Jesus is lord. Even fundamentalists will note this because Jesus preaches against dishonesty as well. You certainly wouldn't say anything you don't mean, and in that case, a fundamentalist would agree with me.

"basically... to make a little clarifcation... the absolute minimum is not being described properly. the minimum you're saying is not a minimum but a cursory overlook of a bunch of ideas.
(i'm not saying the minimum to get by... such taht you're waffling your way into heaven "i got to do the minimum to get by"... i'm saying the theological minimum needed)"

I (And I believe, many Christians) find it ridiculous that you are applying the concept of "minimum requirements" towards heaven. However, if you must use that term, the minimum would be those tenets I listed. You argue that what I gave was a "cursory overlook of a bunch of ideas" that's because heaven isn't a strip joint where you have to be 21 and order 2 drinks to get in.

Those three things I stated were very clear cut and precise on how to live a good life, be a good Christian, and go to heaven. I have no idea why you think it is so complicated and you haven't offered any argument or evidence whatsoever to show that the confusion is on my side.

I'm an atheist and even "I" have no trouble understanding it.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
That's a bad reason not to vote.

The topic don't matter in debate. Only the strength of the arguments.

In fact, not caring about the topic makes you a better voter than a person who does.
Posted by eyeleapy 9 years ago
eyeleapy
I can't vote in this debate for I don't care about these topics
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
1. If he knew the verse, he probably read the rest of scripture and knows how to live the correct life.

2. The process is necessary because we sin every day of our lives and should ask forgiveness in order to cleanse our souls. Someone who has just cleaned his soul and dies won't sin any time soon.

3. I don't agree. More confusion on your part. I made my point quite clearly.

4. Call it what you will, but labeling means absolutely nothing. I could call you a pink llama and that wouldn't make you one. You should have spent more time during the debate to explain why you thought what I said was invalid.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 9 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
"it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk."

also, i said that in my initial post. so if you agreed it depends on where you are in your walk, and you weren't being strict.... i don't know who you were arguing with, cause it wasn't me.

you gave the appearance of requiring strict standrds when you really weren't.

or, the requirements are not as clear as you thought they were by giving a cursoriary overlook of them.
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 9 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
you contradict yourself. obviously you are the one who is confused.

if a christian believes the verse "confess with your mouth", but doenst know to believe all that expanded stuff you mentioned, they'd be damned. according to you number 1.

according to you number 2... i'm giving you the benefit here cause you never really explained yourself,,, they're on a process and a cursorary understanding would save them were they to die at that time, even if they didn't have the full understanding at that time.

which is it?
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
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