The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Renzzy
Con (against)
Winning
22 Points

what one must believe to be saved is not taught clearly... or at all if in proper terms

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/13/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,722 times Debate No: 2635
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (7)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

i ask christians and they say "believe in jesus". then i point out that the devil does. so they say believe he's your savior. then i point out that some believe that different people see that differently... a good message or atonement etc. a fundamentalist would say a good message is not sufficient. so... you have to believe in atonement is one element.
some don't believe he's god... is that okay? a dogamatic would start to list things you must believe. then i point out that that's dogmatic, and most would shy away from that. they want to have their cake... easy answer... and eat it too.. not giving a clear answer.
it could be generally whatever savior means to you. but what if someone believes he's god etc, a new convert? that wouldn't cut it. basically everyone is at different stages.
it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk.

some people say you can't violate a tenant of the bible beliefs of Jesus... but oesnt i know many who say they don't believe he's god or aren't sure despite the bible. does that mean they're not saved? i know some who say it don't matter if they believe these things... they must believe in atonement. if that's the case though, then atonement is a necessary thing.
i could point out many christian who don't know what that is... beyond the mere lack of knoing the definition etc.
so could it be it's not what you believe but rather what you don't? that doesn't help cause the list problem is just starting in the negative direction.

it seems the right answer is it depends on where you are and your heart relationship with God in terms of your believe in jesus. how many christians would say that when you ask them what you must believe? i know of none.

so... beyond the whole faith v works debate.. even in terms of faith... what one must believe is not clear or taught very well.
Renzzy

Con

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see anything that need to be rebuttled in your first argument. What I see is you stating what you believe on the matter, thus introducing the debate. Given the fact I find nothing that needs countering, I will preceed into my first argument without addressing yours.

You claim that what is necessary for salvation is not clearly taught. In a sense you are right, because going from pastor to pastor you will find many different opinions on what is the bare necessity. This is because man is not perfect. The Bible, however, IS clear on what is necessary for salvation, and whether you are Atheist, Agnostic, or Christian you canot deny it. You are entitled to believe that it means nothing, but you cannot say that the Bible is ambiguous on the matter.

[The jailer] "brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31)

What is beliefe, though? As you said, even Satan believes in God. Belief in God is not simply accepring his existance, but it also includes his presence in your life.

"The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God." (Romans 8:16)

The presence of the Holy Sprirt is necessary for salvation, because it is the very presence of God in our lives.

The Bible is also VERY clear on the fact that you must be repentant of your sins in order to be saved. No one who has not repented has forgiveness, and without forgiveness you cannot be saved. Satan mey believe in God, but dos not have the presence of the Hole Spirit in his life, and does not seek repentance for his sins.

Another necessity for salvation is making an attempt to live like Christ. We cannot do this perfectly obviously, but we are commanded to try to the best of our ability.

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light (for the fruit if the spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord."
(Ephesians 5:8-10)

This tells us that we must seek out the way of the Lord, and live our lives as He would. It is also saying that the fruit of the spirit will be appearant in the lives of true believers. What are the fruits of the Spirit? Love, joy, peace, patients, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These will be visibly evident in true followers of Christ, and necessarily follow true belief in Christ.

There is also the command to love God. Jesus says this is the greatest commandment, and it says "You must love the Lord you God with all you heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." I can assure you that Satan does not love God with all his heart, and this is what he lacks for salvation. The presence of the Holy Spirit and seking after God are necessary for salvation, but they come after our love for God. So not only belief in God is required, then, but also love of Him.

It is easy to say you "love God" though, and that is where the presence of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit come in. If they are not evident, then it is questionable whether or not said person is a true believer.

Thank!

Renzzy
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the teaching is not clear if pastors cannot agree on it. it's said to be simple, but it's not, at elast according to them. my premise is that they're not clear, so that's all i have to prove.
i'd agree with the idea that the actual teaching is probably clear.

you post the requirements that love God and neighbor. but, i'm in other debates where they are listing off things needed. no one can agree what exactly needs to be believe. "believe" is too genearal.... a long list is too specifric, for the very minimum.

just to be clear, i'm saying the absolute minimum required to believe is not being taught.
Renzzy

Con

Whether or not pastors agree on it does not make the actual teaching ambiguous, and we both agree on this. The question, though, is if you were learning how to be saved for the first time, you might ask a pastor, but generally you would go to the Bible. If they are not in agreement, do you believe the teacher who can translate it however he wants, or would you believe the Bible, which has been around almost as long as the religion? Personally I would believe the Bible. Man can say what he wants about the Bible and teach accordingly, but the Bible teaches what it means, and what must be done in order for salvation is not the most controversial of Christian doctrines. The necessities for salvation are belief in God and love for Him. These are the bare minimum. If you truly believe in God, and truly love Him, then the fuits of the spirit will show in your life. Whether or not pastors and teachers debate on what is necessary, the Bible teaches the true bare minimum to be saved. It is difficult to find out just what is needed to be saved today, with all of the different denominations of the church, but you can always go back to the Bible. The Bible teaches it clearly. Like I said, even Atheists and Agnostics can agree with this, because you cannot deny it.

Thanks,

Renzzy
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

well considering you're the very few very few who says the requirements you do, i think my case is shown that it's not clear bc of the pastors etc.
i'd agree with you the new commandment you list is what saves.
and what is love etc,,,, that can take a lifetime to learn how to do proper. but the basic premise is to do all that and to try and you're good.

i think we're just doing semantics and such so i'm done unless htere's more to be said.
Renzzy

Con

The pastors and teachers of today do not always agree on what the bares minimum is to be saved, but the Bible always teaches belief and love. With true love for God comes trust in Him, and the fruits of the Spirit. Anyone can go to the Bible and read that plainly. Simple Love is not enough, because the bible say that you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is plainly taught. You may say that you truly love God, and I am in no position to judge you, but you know your heart, and whether you truly believe in and love God or not. All I have to say, then, is that the Bible does in fact teach what is the bare minimum, but whether or not you truly believe it or not is up to you.

Thanks,

Renzzy
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by SolaGratia 9 years ago
SolaGratia
I notice that the ignobly-named Dairgirl4u2c has done this debate on another occasion, and managed to dig up an opponent even less coherent than herself. Her basic thesis is decent, or at least well-thought-out, but that just isn't enough.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
I managed to make a little sense out of it

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Renzzy 9 years ago
Renzzy
I know, it is veryu dificult. I manage though. I always thyough that english and grammer were the most retarded and pointless subjects; I don't think so anymore.
Posted by Logos 9 years ago
Logos
I don't understand how one can debate when your opponent's arguments aren't coherent.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
I argued the same position Renzzy x.x we even ended up concluding with the same argument.

This was a weird debate.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by Renzzy 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by midgetman2 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by SolaGratia 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by YummyYummCupcake 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Logos 9 years ago
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