The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
26 Points
The Contender
sadolite
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

what the absolute minimum needed to believe tobe saved is not clear, or clearly taught

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/14/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,269 times Debate No: 2651
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (25)
Votes (11)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

what the absolute minimum needed to believe is not clear. i am not saying this in terms of seeking to do or believe the minimum such as to "do as little as i have to to get saved". i am saying for theoretical purposes, what a christian must believe as a minimum to be saved (assuming they don't know or won't know everything possible to believe from the bible) is not clear, or clearly taught.

i ask christians and they say "believe in jesus". then i point out that the devil does. so they say believe he's your savior. then i point out that some believe that different people see that differently... a good message or atonement etc. a fundamentalist would say a good message is not sufficient. so... you have to believe in atonement is one element.
some don't believe he's god... is that okay? a dogamatic would start to list things you must believe. then i point out that that's dogmatic, and most would shy away from that. they want to have their cake... easy answer... and eat it too.. not giving a clear answer.
it could be generally whatever savior means to you. but what if someone believes he's god etc, a new convert? that wouldn't cut it. basically everyone is at different stages.
it seems the right conclusion is it depends on hwere you are in your walk.

some people say you can't violate a tenant of the bible beliefs of Jesus... but oesnt i know many who say they don't believe he's god or aren't sure despite the bible. does that mean they're not saved? i know some who say it don't matter if they believe these things... they must believe in atonement. if that's the case though, then atonement is a necessary thing.
i could point out many christian who don't know what that is... beyond the mere lack of knoing the definition etc.
so could it be it's not what you believe but rather what you don't? that doesn't help cause the list problem is just starting in the negative direction.

it seems the right answer is it depends on where you are and your heart relationship with God in terms of your believe in jesus. how many christians would say that when you ask them what you must believe? i know of none.

so... beyond the whole faith v works debate.. even in terms of faith... what one must believe is not clear or taught very well.
sadolite

Con

My understanding of what you must do to be saved is this: You only have to do one thing. Accept jesus as your saviour, that includes all of his teachings. You have not accepted Jesus if you are willing to debate some of his teachings are wrong or flawed. You must except him and his teachings completely. That does not mean that if you commit a sin that you are going to hell. Jesus says you must repent for your sins, that is part of his teachings. so if you do something that is a sin and try to convince your self that it's not that bad, you are not accepting Jesus and his teachings. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, that is why you don't automatically go to hell. I would contend that is why people who don't believe in god have a problem with god. Jesus' teachings interferes with their personal behavior and they don't think it's that bad, thereby not accepting Jesus as their savior.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
sadolite

Con

Well I guess I showed her the way to salvation. She's not debating against JESUS AND HIS TEACHINGS. If she has found her way, my work is done here.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

his teachings can be unclear... if htey werne't you wouldn't have practically every pastor debating this issue.

i agree that his treachings are probably clear, but that pastors have made it not clear.... that's all i'm debating.
and, it could plausibly be argued as not clear, given what i said in my first post.

for you to say savior is all that matters, is just you. that doesn't prove clarity.

also, i'd bet if i asked, the response would be split amongst pastors... "what if htey believe savior in the sense of a good message but no in the sense of atonement?" and half would say saved and half would say not saved. in my hypo i'm assuming they're not deliberatlely refusing to believe in atonement but they don't know any better.
so are you saying savior in any sense that they believe?
does your definition include necessarily atonement undertones? i'm only asking as per those who are new to the faith and don't know any better.
(plus if i were to argue about atonement... the orthodox believe something different than the catholic church and protestant and mainline US chrisitanity on his issue... and they argue what they've believe has always been true)
sadolite

Con

God gave you a conscious, use it and don't listen to other people including pastors or priests, the are human and imperfect in the eyes of God. I have never done anything and not Know it was wrong from the very first moment I did it when I was a young wild and crazy guy, I just convinced myself it wasn't that bad. I'm sure you are the same.
Debate Round No. 3
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
Ok. Well, pardon me. that is what i meant. I can't talk with words very well that day, or today. You know how it is. Atheism exists in all cultures and societies.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
You didn't say "all religions," you said "everyone," implying atheism does not exist in africa.

:D
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
Sir, you were not being addressed, and if you would like to destroy me, please, engage me in verbal combat by debating me about something useful. Iblis became Satan, or the antithesis of God. That is what I meant by Satan. Satan is the archenemy of God, he comes under many names in many different religions, that is what I meant. I was reffering to the local tribal religions that I was exposed to. I am so sorry for offending your sensibilities. They all have evil spirits, evil spirits that oppose the good spirits. Evil spirits that are the opposite of the good ones. Interesting note, there is a God of some kind in all those religions. So, when I say "Satan" I do not mean Satan in just the Christian context, I meant the evil force that pervades all religions and stories. Religions have good and bad. The good is their god, whether he comes under the name "God" or not, and the bad is a devil of some form or another. Please inform me of religions that do not have this. Like the Church of Satan, where what they believe is "good" is regarded as evil by most all other religions.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"I'm terribly sorry. I was raised in Africa where everyone believes in Satan, Christian or not."

No they don't. Muslims believe in shaitan and iblis, and they exist in africa. The various local religions have no satan. And there are at least a few atheists in africa :D
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
I'm terribly sorry. I was raised in Africa where everyone believes in Satan, Christian or not. But I shall remember your advice from now on. My tongue gets in the way of my brain most of the time. So thank you for correcting me.

I'm afraid I did not make my point clear. I will summarize.

Faith without works is dead.

Works do not make faith, from faith, you are wanting to do works. works are not essential, but rather the product. Faith is not the product but the equation. Works ore the sum. Just as 2 and 2 are 4, true faith equals works, not out of a sense of duty, but love.

God's grace is key to salvation. Jesus' death on the cross took our sin away, and to be forgiven and accepted, we simply must ask.

And the comment you made, well, here we go. Grace is always there, no matter how many times you fail, or how big you screw up. God is always there with open arms. What I meant from distancing yourself from sin is that you cannot stay sinning in a place you know in heart is wrong. That is when you move out of that place, and ask God for help in that area. I did not mean that you have to stay away from sin or else bad old God is coming with Hell in his hand. And if you fall into that area of sin again, ask for forgiveness.

The reason I included that point is that many North American Christians are acting just like everyone else, and are saying, "Oh, God will forgive us." That is wrong. They should reconsider their beliefs. If they wish to act like that, they should declare themselves non-Christians, because it confuses not only themselves, but the entire world. "If you are so different, then why do you act the same way?" So that is my reply.

Once again, sorry for my lack of intelligence, and please don't hold it against the Christian body, but rather just me. I shall try to mend my ways.

Until later
God Bless
Posted by friar_zero 9 years ago
friar_zero
I would avoid attributing things to satan. Just a tip for talking with non-believers. In the end the bible is the big book of multiple choice and there exists interpretations for every passage and every dogma. So I will only make one point and then leave it up to you and your congregation to decide for yourselves how to approach salvation.

You said, "But also, we can fall into sin for as long as can be, but as long as you repent, and make an honest effort to try to distance yourself from sin, you will always be forgiven."

And make a sincere effort to distance yourself from sin? Sounds like earning salvation to me.
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
I went to your link friar. And this is my answer.

Without you moving in your faith, it is pointless to have one.

God talks about rewarding those who do things for Him. Of course he will reward those who do things for him that are holy in his sight, but to think that is what will get you into heaven, that is lie from Satan himself. And after you have been saved, you want to do things for God. that is what those verses reference.

the Ezekiel verse, "man shall turn from wickedness and save his soul"(roughly paraphrased) That is simply saying that we cannot stay sinning and expect to get to heaven.

But also, we can fall into sin for as long as can be, but as long as you repent, and make an honest effort to try to distance yourself from sin, you will always be forgiven.

Forgive me if I am harsh, but this is what God says. Without doing stuff you aren't living in God's plan for you, but it isn't the KEY to salvation. Jesus dying on the cross was our key, and all we have to do is ask for it.
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
No, Christianity at its root is not a works religion. You may be thinking of the Old Testament, or part one of the Bible, but that is just to prove the point of the futility of a works religion. The Isrealites constantly screwed up, and God would punish them and then forgive tham. But remember, the verse, Acts 15:11, "we believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus we are saved." The other parts of Christianity you mentioned, I cannot answer for them, but they should study the Bible.

Read Luke, or any of the first four books of the Bible. The main theme is love and sacrafice so we can be saved.
Posted by friar_zero 9 years ago
friar_zero
Ace, there are many logical issues with the idea of Jesus sacrifice. However that is a topic for another time and place.

Luke18:18-22 and so forth, is Christ's reply to a man asking how to get into heaven. It's pretty clear he is not talking about "blessings and treasures" but salvation.
Posted by aceofelves 9 years ago
aceofelves
Oops, I just said "two different THINGS" but obviously the Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing. I thought I'd clarify before someone else corrected me.
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